Electric school buses the next DUD………lmao

SteinwayTransitCorp

Well-known member

Biden Spent $1 Billion To Get Schools Electric Buses. This Michigan District Says Theirs Hardly Work.​

Collin Anderson
Screen-Shot-2021-07-15-at-4.20.45-PM-736x431.png
A Proterra electric bus in service in Philadelphia in 2019 / YouTube Screenshot
Michigan's fourth-largest school district is having "significant" performance issues with its expensive electric buses, issues that come after the Biden administration spent $1 billion to "transform America's school bus fleet" with electric models.

During an April 19 presentation to the Ann Arbor Public Schools Board of Education, the district's environmental sustainability director, Emile Lauzzana, highlighted a number of issues with the district's electric bus fleet. Those buses, Lauzzana said, have "a lot of downtime and performance issues" and aren't "fully on the road," despite the fact that they are "approximately five times more expensive than regular buses." The infrastructure upgrades required to use the buses, meanwhile, were "originally estimated to be only about $50,000" but "ended up being more like $200,000," according to Lauzzana. "I have a number of colleagues in different states who are facing similar challenges," the district official lamented. "For the school bus market, it's been challenging for us."

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Just months before Lauzzana's admission, President Joe Biden's Environmental Protection Agency announced it awarded nearly $1 billion in taxpayer funds to "transform America's school bus fleet" with "over 2,400 clean school buses that will accelerate the transition to zero emission vehicles." But problems with electric buses occurred long before the agency's announcement.

Electric bus company Proterra, which the Biden administration has lauded as "pretty amazing," saw Philadelphia remove 25 of its buses from the roads in 2020 due to structural problems. Those buses cost the city $24 million. Another Southern California city waited months in 2021 to repair nearly a dozen buses from its electric fleet, more than a third of which were out of service at the time. Ann Arbor Public Schools' electric buses also use Proterra batteries and drivetrain technology.

Still, those issues did not stop Biden from setting aside $9 billion for electric school buses and local transit vehicles in the Democrat's November 2021 infrastructure bill. Biden is also not the only prominent Democrat who is spending big on "clean" buses. Michigan Democratic governor Gretchen Whitmer plans to create a $150 million electric school bus program through her 2024 state budget. Even Ann Arbor Public Schools is refusing to step away from electric buses—Lauzzana during his April presentation said the district is committed to purchasing "additional electric buses," despite its ongoing challenges. For conservative group Michigan Freedom Fund, that commitment is misguided.

"Michigan Democrats have put the (electric) cart before the horse. The technology and infrastructure for electric buses do not exist at this moment … yet Democrats and school districts insist on purchasing electric buses," the group's communications director, Mary Drabik, told the Washington Free Beacon. "This backward approach to policy only creates more costly problems for residents. As long as Democrats continue to spend the tax dollars of hard-working Michiganders, it will be the residents that truly suffer, not the environment."

Ann Arbor Public Schools, the Biden administration, and Whitmer did not return requests for comment. While the school district did not purchase its electric buses with federal money from the Biden administration—its buses are the product of a state grant funded by Michigan's portion of a Volkswagen environmental settlement—Lauzzana's presentation shows that the district hopes to take advantage of additional "incentive programs" in the future.

The Biden administration has faced intense criticism from congressional Republicans over its ties to electric bus maker Proterra. Administration officials repeatedly showcased the company while Biden's energy secretary, Jennifer Granholm, held up to $5 million in Proterra stock. Granholm eventually sold her 240,000 Proterra shares in May 2021, with the former Michigan governor earning a cool $1.6 million. Just months after Granholm's stock sale, Proterra officials discussed their plans to capitalize on government electric bus spending. "The tailwinds of the North American electric transit bus market have never been stronger," the company said in an August 2021 report. "With zero emission transit bus funding increasing by over 300 percent over 2021 funding levels, we expect the [infrastructure bill], if passed by Congress and signed into law, to help drive significant acceleration in the electrification of more than 65,000 buses in the North American transit bus fleet."
 

idssteve

Active member

Biden Spent $1 Billion To Get Schools Electric Buses. This Michigan District Says Theirs Hardly Work.​

Collin Anderson
Screen-Shot-2021-07-15-at-4.20.45-PM-736x431.png
A Proterra electric bus in service in Philadelphia in 2019 / YouTube Screenshot
Michigan's fourth-largest school district is having "significant" performance issues with its expensive electric buses, issues that come after the Biden administration spent $1 billion to "transform America's school bus fleet" with electric models.

During an April 19 presentation to the Ann Arbor Public Schools Board of Education, the district's environmental sustainability director, Emile Lauzzana, highlighted a number of issues with the district's electric bus fleet. Those buses, Lauzzana said, have "a lot of downtime and performance issues" and aren't "fully on the road," despite the fact that they are "approximately five times more expensive than regular buses." The infrastructure upgrades required to use the buses, meanwhile, were "originally estimated to be only about $50,000" but "ended up being more like $200,000," according to Lauzzana. "I have a number of colleagues in different states who are facing similar challenges," the district official lamented. "For the school bus market, it's been challenging for us."

Screenshot-2023-05-23-at-4.14.46-PM.png


Just months before Lauzzana's admission, President Joe Biden's Environmental Protection Agency announced it awarded nearly $1 billion in taxpayer funds to "transform America's school bus fleet" with "over 2,400 clean school buses that will accelerate the transition to zero emission vehicles." But problems with electric buses occurred long before the agency's announcement.

Electric bus company Proterra, which the Biden administration has lauded as "pretty amazing," saw Philadelphia remove 25 of its buses from the roads in 2020 due to structural problems. Those buses cost the city $24 million. Another Southern California city waited months in 2021 to repair nearly a dozen buses from its electric fleet, more than a third of which were out of service at the time. Ann Arbor Public Schools' electric buses also use Proterra batteries and drivetrain technology.

Still, those issues did not stop Biden from setting aside $9 billion for electric school buses and local transit vehicles in the Democrat's November 2021 infrastructure bill. Biden is also not the only prominent Democrat who is spending big on "clean" buses. Michigan Democratic governor Gretchen Whitmer plans to create a $150 million electric school bus program through her 2024 state budget. Even Ann Arbor Public Schools is refusing to step away from electric buses—Lauzzana during his April presentation said the district is committed to purchasing "additional electric buses," despite its ongoing challenges. For conservative group Michigan Freedom Fund, that commitment is misguided.

"Michigan Democrats have put the (electric) cart before the horse. The technology and infrastructure for electric buses do not exist at this moment … yet Democrats and school districts insist on purchasing electric buses," the group's communications director, Mary Drabik, told the Washington Free Beacon. "This backward approach to policy only creates more costly problems for residents. As long as Democrats continue to spend the tax dollars of hard-working Michiganders, it will be the residents that truly suffer, not the environment."

Ann Arbor Public Schools, the Biden administration, and Whitmer did not return requests for comment. While the school district did not purchase its electric buses with federal money from the Biden administration—its buses are the product of a state grant funded by Michigan's portion of a Volkswagen environmental settlement—Lauzzana's presentation shows that the district hopes to take advantage of additional "incentive programs" in the future.

The Biden administration has faced intense criticism from congressional Republicans over its ties to electric bus maker Proterra. Administration officials repeatedly showcased the company while Biden's energy secretary, Jennifer Granholm, held up to $5 million in Proterra stock. Granholm eventually sold her 240,000 Proterra shares in May 2021, with the former Michigan governor earning a cool $1.6 million. Just months after Granholm's stock sale, Proterra officials discussed their plans to capitalize on government electric bus spending. "The tailwinds of the North American electric transit bus market have never been stronger," the company said in an August 2021 report. "With zero emission transit bus funding increasing by over 300 percent over 2021 funding levels, we expect the [infrastructure bill], if passed by Congress and signed into law, to help drive significant acceleration in the electrification of more than 65,000 buses in the North American transit bus fleet."
Remember the Grumman bus fiasco? Using aluminum fuel tank for drive train support was bad enough. Fortunately #2 fuel's pretty safe stuff. BUT the phreeking maniacs routed electrical conduit thru wheel well! And wheel travel permitted tire mashing the phreeking electrical conduit! Inevitable electrically ignited fuel leaking thru fuel tank cracks. Ug.

Some ppl have NO business designing roller skates! Grumman sorta sorted things out. Kinda. Lol

Like more details on specific problems with these busses. I, personally, might prove resistant to putting my kids or grandkids on these things without review of fire mitigation strategies. Including escape?


Also, what's battery storage capacity of these? My home town runs school busses thru an assigned route for elementary students. Another round for middle school. A third round for high school. Either battery capacity would need to be sufficient to travel three rounds? OR level three charging between rounds?.


And THEN repeat three rounds afternoon. And THEN recharge overnight in sub freezing temps? AND also support cabin heat for kids on cold days?


Quite a challenge. Imo.

Batteries will need to be HUGE imo. Ooooor swappable?
Level three charging a fleet of these might demand a sizable substation itself?
 
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spARTacus

Well-known member
There's electric transit buses already. No idea how often they need to be charged and their uptime (vs downtime for charging) on various routes for different municipalities, but there's bound to be a fair bit of statistics about them already.
 

idssteve

Active member
Greenhouse mechanism restricts infrared radiation into black space vacuum. Nearly every drop of energy fed electric motors rejects as convection or conduction heat. How much of that radiates as infrared into black space vacuum? ??
 

SteinwayTransitCorp

Well-known member
Greenhouse mechanism restricts infrared radiation into black space vacuum. Nearly every drop of energy fed electric motors rejects as convection or conduction heat. How much of that radiates as infrared into black space vacuum? ??
Last time I was in New York City, the Port Authority of New York, and New Jersey are using electric buses around the airports. I was speaking to the driver in depth it was working. The buses get about 3 1/2 hours use before they need to go back to the bond to be charged. This is made worse when the AC unit must be run constantly. In my opinion this is a total fiasco a transit bus should be on Minimum of eight hours, and then someplace is up to 10. As for the Grumman bus fiasco, that was the fault of the New York City transit authority. Our company had the same buses. We sent ours back to Gramond and had them repaired, the city never made the repairs and continue to operate them until the motor fell out on Queens Boulevard. Then they sued lost and caught and sold $195,000 buses for 10 grand. We bought 75 of them at that price. And ran them over 25 years of service.
 

idssteve

Active member
Last time I was in New York City, the Port Authority of New York, and New Jersey are using electric buses around the airports. I was speaking to the driver in depth it was working. The buses get about 3 1/2 hours use before they need to go back to the bond to be charged. This is made worse when the AC unit must be run constantly. In my opinion this is a total fiasco a transit bus should be on Minimum of eight hours, and then someplace is up to 10. As for the Grumman bus fiasco, that was the fault of the New York City transit authority. Our company had the same buses. We sent ours back to Gramond and had them repaired, the city never made the repairs and continue to operate them until the motor fell out on Queens Boulevard. Then they sued lost and caught and sold $195,000 buses for 10 grand. We bought 75 of them at that price. And ran them over 25 years of service.
Yeah, Grumman sorta got it working. Still... Hanging drive train from aluminum fuel tank should never have made it to paper. Let alone production. Imo.

Dont get me started on conduit routing and wheel travel. Clearly a failure to communicate between suspension and electric teams. Lol.
 

idssteve

Active member
Last time I was in New York City, the Port Authority of New York, and New Jersey are using electric buses around the airports. I was speaking to the driver in depth it was working. The buses get about 3 1/2 hours use before they need to go back to the bond to be charged. This is made worse when the AC unit must be run constantly. In my opinion this is a total fiasco a transit bus should be on Minimum of eight hours, and then someplace is up to 10. As for the Grumman bus fiasco, that was the fault of the New York City transit authority. Our company had the same buses. We sent ours back to Gramond and had them repaired, the city never made the repairs and continue to operate them until the motor fell out on Queens Boulevard. Then they sued lost and caught and sold $195,000 buses for 10 grand. We bought 75 of them at that price. And ran them over 25 years of service.
3.5 hrs might prove workable IF battery can be swapped in 3.5 minutes over lunch break? That'd permit 3.5 hrs to charge. Much easier on infrastructure than trying to stuff 3.5hrs of energy into 35 minutes of charging time? Lol
 

SteinwayTransitCorp

Well-known member
Last time I was in New York City, the Port Authority of New York, and New Jersey are using electric buses around the airports. I was speaking to the driver in depth it was working. The buses get about 3 1/2 hours use before they need to go back to the bond to be charged. This is made worse when the AC unit must be run constantly. In my opinion this is a total fiasco a transit bus should be on Minimum of eight hours, and then someplace is up to 10. As for the Grumman bus fiasco, that was the fault of the New York City transit authority. Our company had the same buses. We sent ours back to Gramond and had them repaired, the city never made the repairs and continue to operate them until the motor fell out on Queens Boulevard. Then they sued lost and caught and sold $195,000 buses for 10 grand. We bought 75 of them at that price. And ran them over 25 years of service.
Actually, the Grumman design was very similar to the general motors fishbowl hanging off the back bulkhead. The real issue was that the city of did not maintain their fleet, one of the buses that had the engine fall out, had two broken rear shocks, and had a crack that was visible. Every time the bus was serviced. We had no issue with ours when the directive came out. We sent those back. The bulkhead were reinforced, and they continued in service.
 

idssteve

Active member
Actually, the Grumman design was very similar to the general motors fishbowl hanging off the back bulkhead. The real issue was that the city of did not maintain their fleet, one of the buses that had the engine fall out, had two broken rear shocks, and had a crack that was visible. Every time the bus was serviced. We had no issue with ours when the directive came out. We sent those back. The bulkhead were reinforced, and they continued in service.
My exposure included a Midwest monster muni that did some supremely stupid things. Their maintenance chief ultimately destroyed the things. Out right vandalism, imo. I was retained to find the TRUTH. NO one liked the truths I found. Still under NDA soo...
 

idssteve

Active member
I can see potential for EV school busses. If, BIG if, designed by REAL, old school, engineers who will identify the goal BEFORE pursuing solution..

What irritates ME SOooo much about legislated "engineering" are lawyers and politicians practicing "engineering" withOUT a license! !! If I got caught practicing LAW without a license, how many milliseconds would it take these clowns to lock ME up? ??!!! Yet lawyers and politicians practice incompetent engineering with impunity. Why? Because they can...

My F350 EV project is mostly to free me from fuel pumps. Charged with my OWN, free, solar energy. Still deciding on chemistry but it WILL utilize a rapid swap battery config. REAL rechargeable tools by DeWalt, Ryobi, Milwaukee, etc etc universally implement quick swap pack config. Why not TOOLS like School busses, etc?

Swappable batteries permit charging at comfortable leisure in SAFELY configured environments. NO need for swappable batts to charge in subfreezing environments. NO need to level three charge! NO need to charge absent adequate fire safety infrastructure! NO need to take longer than 30 seconds for robotic swap! Imo. AND develop rapid jettison procedure responders might implement?

Yet, all of this is for WHY? To minimize impediments to infra red radiance out into black space? ??

Where are the radiant surfaces radiating from EV? The EV motors, etc, ultimately heat our atmosphere with NO chance of that heat radiating into black space! Heat that is JUST as trapped on our vacuum insulated planet as burning fossils. Imo.

There are good motives for intelligently implemented EV. Mitigating global warming with solar collected energy is NOT one of them. Imo. Fwiw.

Wind and hydro extract atmospheric energy. Solar collectors absorb incident radiance that might have been reflected. And/or heated soil etc that might radiate into black space at night. Pretty basic energy boundary engineering. Imo
 
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idssteve

Active member
Can't help but reminisce many moons (more like Jupiters lol) ago I'd "served time" as an "educator" in a monster muni monster high school. Sign tacked by physics room door:. "All you can eat knowledge. No charge. Bring your own container." Lol. 1500 students. Grades 10-12. 9 was in Junior high for lack of capacity. Baby boom? Lol


This three story building occupied a square block. 8' florescent lighted EVERYthing. Including block long hallways.

And then there were OPEC oil shortages. 60% of imported oil in those days became #2 diesel for OTR trucks. Okay. Politicians ignored pleas by GOOD ppl who REALLY knew their industry. Even demonized them as "selfish insiders". Lol. They shoved national 55mph down our throat. To SAVE oil?

Unless we were okay with LESS ton-miles/day, we would need to ADD trucks to the highways in order to maintain same daily ton-miles. ??

Reducing speed of transport from 70 to 55 represented a 21% reduction in daily ton-miles. Demanding 21% MORE trucks to deliver the same daily ton-miles..

Fine if those trucks burned 21% less fuel at 55 than at 70. They didn't save half that in real world practice. How the hell did adding 21% more trucks AND inexperienced drivers save a single DROP of OIL? It didn't. And the same sickos are STILL at it? Lol


Okay. Back to monster school. And other insanities. Like the whole daylight savings time shift to "save fuel"? Kids got crushed by bus wheels in the early morning darkness! Headlight burned about 55W x 2 = 110 W! Powered by OIL!

Monster school principal filled a newspaper article proclaiming he was doing his part by shutting off hallway lights between classes.. I privately quizzed him about how much of that electricity was generated by OIL? < 1%??

I then produced oem specs on that school's 8' florescent lighting. Pretty efficient for the day. BUT they used 3 hrs of electricity every startup! And he was starting them 3 times per hr for lighting 5 minute class change! He was wasting 9 hrs of energy every hr! For 10 hr days?? Ug

His response? We've already publicized it. Ug. I didn't stay there long. Lol
 
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SteinwayTransitCorp

Well-known member
I am just tired of people who know better, instead of improving what we have the morons in government need to feel important and reinvent the wheel. Billions wasted while people suffer .
 

idssteve

Active member
I am just tired of people who know better, instead of improving what we have the morons in government need to feel important and reinvent the wheel. Billions wasted while people suffer .
In some cases, they're too stupid to understand how to refine a proven system. Easier for some to replace it with something stupid enough for THEM to understand? One where zero sum is all the math needed? Lol

AND since they consider themselves "smartest", ANYone they fail to comprehend must be the stupid ones? Failing to comprehend that capicity to comprehend itself defines "intelligence"? Lol.


In other cases motives are simply nefarious and malevolent. Imo.
 
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Greenhouse mechanism restricts infrared radiation into black space vacuum. Nearly every drop of energy fed electric motors rejects as convection or conduction heat. How much of that radiates as infrared into black space vacuum? ??
I think the EV's would still be an improvement. Internal combustion engine yielding waste heat/infrared + CO2 from the fuel consumed. EV's would be waste heat/infrared + 0 CO2.
 

idssteve

Active member
I think the EV's would still be an improvement. Internal combustion engine yielding waste heat/infrared + CO2 from the fuel consumed. EV's would be waste heat/infrared + 0 CO2.
EV fed by wind or hydro could be improvement. ANYthing fed by solar? Not so simple. The whole problem with CO2 is that it's impeding about 5-8% of infrared escape.. Some solar panels are collecting 30%. Like CO2, the panels don't disappear at night.

I don't like sharing O2 we breathe with machinery. Don't like breathing CO2 either. Not yet convinced of CO2 "greenhouse theory" tho. I'll charge my home built F350 EV with lots of solar. Just won't delude myself that it's assisting global Thermal balance. I'm among very FEW who've included design features in my home that assist IR escape at night. Feel like a lone voice in vacuum of space these past several decades. Lol.

Haven't yet schemed a config to "heat pipe" EV motor waste heat into IR emitter. Yet... 😉
 
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SteinwayTransitCorp

Well-known member
Here is another issue, the greenhouse gas theory is not 100 percent. The other is what do you do when a volcano goes poof? An internal combustion engine is still the best bang for the buck. It could burn even cleaner, but they want to sell you a new car…..greed is the environment driver not anything else.
 

idssteve

Active member
Here is another issue, the greenhouse gas theory is not 100 percent. The other is what do you do when a volcano goes poof? An internal combustion engine is still the best bang for the buck. It could burn even cleaner, but they want to sell you a new car…..greed is the environment driver not anything else.


Lava flows and forest fires emit a LOT of IR off the planet. I'm a life long zero impact advocate. Problem is, humanity simply don't KNOW where zero is! ANY human claiming that knowledge should PROVE it. With unmanipulated RAW data. There are ppl constructing mechanisms for REMOVING CO2 from atmosphere! WHO decides how much SHOULD be removed? ?? What if they remove too much? And upset balances we have zero clue about?

What if Earth's thermal balance is impacted by external drivers humanity is stupid about? Geomagnetic "shield" as ONE possibility? What if we end up needing our modern technology as a life boat to survive what ever might be happening?

What if our life boat is NOT causing the flood? That the holes our leaders are directing us to drill in the bottom of the life boat are NOT letting the flood waters OUT. Lol.


What if the suicide pact we're unwittingly committed to simply hands global dominion to CCP? What's CCP record on ecology?
 

SteinwayTransitCorp

Well-known member
Lava flows and forest fires emit a LOT of IR off the planet. I'm a life long zero impact advocate. Problem is, humanity simply don't KNOW where zero is! ANY human claiming that knowledge should PROVE it. With unmanipulated RAW data. There are ppl constructing mechanisms for REMOVING CO2 from atmosphere! WHO decides how much SHOULD be removed? ?? What if they remove too much? And upset balances we have zero clue about?

What if Earth's thermal balance is impacted by external drivers humanity is stupid about? Geomagnetic "shield" as ONE possibility? What if we end up needing our modern technology as a life boat to survive what ever might be happening?

What if our life boat is NOT causing the flood? That the holes our leaders are directing us to drill in the bottom of the life boat are NOT letting the flood waters OUT. Lol.


What if the suicide pact we're unwittingly committed to simply hands global dominion to CCP? What's CCP record on ecology?
Spot on, what happens when they pump all this captured carbon into the ground. Does all on ground water fail? What if removing the carbon causes other chemical reactions in the atmosphere setting everyone’s hair on fire? What if a couple of countries destroy their economies and bankrupt the government while other countries continue to pollute and thrive?

I would almost bet if you took out all the free cash right now in green energy, green energy would come to a stop. As my father would say, follow the money.
 

spARTacus

Well-known member
Follow the money..... Yeah that's worked out great overall for us after several decades hasn't it? Seemed like it was great at the time eh? Great for the generations that lived and thrived and accumulated wealth from that time period. Generations like your own, maybe that of your children, that of your father and his father (and maybe his father). What about your children's children generations? Guess you don't care about them? Screw them all, they can make do with whatever they get? Keep only following the money and all the Western companies would have ended up in China or elsewhere, continued decline of the American Empire (might be too late already, MAGA, perhaps no turning back from where following the money has put us in a corner in terms of either effective Chinese domination/control over the entire world or Chuck's plan to nuc them). One doesn't even have to also consider the climate change variables and debate to have a good thought about how messed up our husbandry and ownership of things has taken things. Just think only about the "...show me the money...". It is correct that we are now in a world of hurt with some countries maybe going to suffer while others may choose not to, and then also other conflict as a result of those imbalances. Only following the money has sure got us somewhere good. I am going to have a big laugh the day the steinway medal/award for excellence in transportation innovation and research gets transformed into being about for alternate fuels and EV.
 

Ph1llip

Active member
Follow the money..... Yeah that's worked out great overall for us after several decades hasn't it? Seemed like it was great at the time eh? Great for the generations that lived and thrived and accumulated wealth from that time period. Generations like your own, maybe that of your children, that of your father and his father (and maybe his father). What about your children's children generations? Guess you don't care about them? Screw them all, they can make do with whatever they get? Keep only following the money and all the Western companies would have ended up in China or elsewhere, continued decline of the American Empire (might be too late already, MAGA, perhaps no turning back from where following the money has put us in a corner in terms of either effective Chinese domination/control over the entire world or Chuck's plan to nuc them). One doesn't even have to also consider the climate change variables and debate to have a good thought about how messed up our husbandry and ownership of things has taken things. Just think only about the "...show me the money...". It is correct that we are now in a world of hurt with some countries maybe going to suffer while others may choose not to, and then also other conflict as a result of those imbalances. Only following the money has sure got us somewhere good. I am going to have a big laugh the day the steinway medal/award for excellence in transportation innovation and research gets transformed into being about for alternate fuels and EV.
This is a very unsophisticated argument Spartz. The context of "Follow the Money" in STCo's post above is about the principle that when analyzing or investigating something, following the financial breadcrumbs is a proven, valuable technique to help understand intent or behavior.

Forensic accountants, law enforcement, intelligence agencies etc. all do it. It has nothing to do with the way you used it in your emotive post, which is not about following the money, but pursuing profit.

You have this habit of either not comprehending what other people say, or simply adapting it to your woke worldview. Once again, would you like me to send you a case of Bud Light? 😆
 
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