GM profits hit all time high

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

GM Announced today that they had a fantastic quarter while it looks perfect, if you dig in as I did an alarming trend shows it’s ugly face. All of the profits came from ICE production and non from EV‘s . The EV division lost money and funds from ICE sales more than offset the loss. This is not a sustainable business model.

 

[spARTacus]

Hmmm. I thought that not long ago GM was basically almost gone/dead, and maybe only Ford would survive as a last "NA" auto manufacture, with Dodge/Chrysler about to disappear also even before GM. I guess GM's gonna be around for at least a bit longer.

 

[idssteve]

Always heard that 1969 GM's Chevrolet division alone out grossed 1969 Japan GNP... ? All before "Estes Attitude" directed flight path downward? Lol

The fact that name recognition survives today proves the incomprehensible resilience of Sloan's enduring brilliance. Imo. GM's legacy may endure over the next century? For better AND worse. Imo. Lol

Special motives

Special motives: Automotive Inventors and Alternative Fuels in the 1920s Paper to a conference of the Society for the History of Technology, Washington D.C., Oct. 19, 2007 By Bill Kovarik, Ph.D. A…

billkovarik.com

 

[Ph1llip]

GM is the bomb. Colorado ZR2, now that's a truck.

BEV's do NOT make economic sense. Every Tesla car is sold at a loss LOL.

 

[Paul Reichert]

GM is the bomb. Colorado ZR2, now that's a truck.

BEV's do NOT make economic sense. Every Tesla car is sold at a loss LOL.

There is another way of seeing this.

Tesla Myth: "Tesla Is Losing Money Making Cars"

Around the end of April, Car and Driver reported that Tesla "continues to lose money making vehicles," which is completely opposite of the truth. The article noted that Tesla shared good Model 3 and Model

cleantechnica.com

 

[Ph1llip]

No Paul, math is math. 10 minus 5 doesn't equal 57.

Each Tesla car is sold at a loss, which means the cost of making it is more than the price the car is sold for.

Read all about it here: https://www.motorbiscuit.com/tesla-loses-money-on-every-single-car-heres-where-the-profit-hides/

And here: https://jalopnik.com/tesla-loses-a-lot-of-money-selling-cars-but-makes-it-a-1846768094

The fact that Tesla - the company- is profitable is a different situation altogether, also explained by the articles above.

In 1910, electric vehicles were shelved because of cost, range and complexity. Nothing has changed today. Except today, we have the Green Religion, a false god if ever there was one.

 

[spARTacus]

...Each Tesla car is sold at a loss, which means the cost of making it is more than the price the car is sold for...

...well, not really.

Considering that the credits being sold (which according to the articles you posted are what is keeping Tesla profitable) are earned as a by product result of Tesla's making/selling EVs, it just means its a different way at looking at building/selling cars. Right now, Tesla doesn't depend on recuperating from the buyer of EVs the full cost required to build the EV. Instead, Tesla is selling two things as associated to each EV it builds/sells. First, the actual EV. Second the credit sale opportunity that Tesla achieves as a result of building/selling the EV. So, right now Tesla is making money from building/selling of each EV and the cost of making each one is not more than revenue Tesla recuperates as a result of each one.

The actual topic to be discussed with regards to the full cost of what it takes for Tesla to build an EV, is whether or not Tesla will still make money building/selling EVs when their credit selling opportunities start to dry up. Presumably, Tesla hopes by then they will have figured out how to make EVs significantly cheaper than what it costs today.

Or, it's all just a short term shell game that Tesla knows will eventually end (for them), once the situation stabilizes and no one needs to buy their credits anymore.

The government probably doesn't care about the eventual by then situation with specific regards to Tesla, because by then enough of the entire automotive industry will have been transformed and others will replace Tesla if Tesla can't by then figure out how to keep surviving.

 

[spARTacus]

...In 1910, electric vehicles were shelved because of cost, range and complexity. Nothing has changed today. Except today, we have the Green Religion, a false god if ever there was one.

I don't agree with that. I'd suggest that EVs couldn't make a go of if back then in comparison to what was possible via ICEs, and in the bliss of no one thinking that ICEs were going to do harm in terms of fossil fuels, etc..., and / or no one back then caring. We also used to just dump garbage in the ocean, "...it's massive, it can absorb anything with no impact..."

Things are always relative.

Labelling anyone who likes the movement towards EVs as Green Religion Zealots is just going to cause many of them to be polarized against whatever alternate position or opinion you might have.

Yes, there is craziness on all sides, in my opinion.

 

[Ph1llip]

I don't agree with that. I'd suggest that EVs couldn't make a go of if back then in comparison to what was possible via ICEs, and in the bliss of no one thinking that ICEs were going to do harm in terms of fossil fuels, etc..., and / or no one back then caring. We also used to just dump garbage in the ocean, "...it's massive, it can absorb anything with no impact..."

Things are always relative.

Labelling anyone who likes the movement towards EVs as Green Religion Zealots is just going to cause many of them to be polarized against whatever alternate position or opinion you might have.

Yes, there is craziness on all sides, in my opinion.

Well, I'm not a zealot.

I'm waiting for the Ioniq 5 to come down to a non-crazy price before I consider buying one. Or even a used one. But it won't.

Because they don't make financial sense compared to ICEV's. I pay my accountant well to tell me these things. Unless I'm a super intelligent person like @idssteve who can custom design their own electric cars, I am limited only to purchasing what's already been manufactured and none of them make technical or financial sense as I'm not a metropolitan-driving-only kinda guy.

There are lots of things in this physical life that are absolute. Like mathematics. Physics. Someone can believe all they like that they can fly when they jump off a building but Gravity makes sure their expectations are brought down to earth. Literally.

Tesla cars are loss leaders. This isn't a new strategy:



And my original statement that they are sold at a loss is true. Math is math. This is just a symptom of a wider malaise in the Western world where people think that because they believe something is true, it must be LOL.

 

[spARTacus]

Well, I'm not a zealot.

I'm waiting for the Ioniq 5 to come down to a non-crazy price before I consider buying one. Or even a used one. But it won't.

Because they don't make financial sense compared to ICEV's. I pay my accountant well to tell me these things. Unless I'm a super intelligent person like @idssteve who can custom design their own electric cars, I am limited only to purchasing what's already been manufactured and none of them make technical or financial sense as I'm not a metropolitan-driving-only kinda guy.

There are lots of things in this physical life that are absolute. Like mathematics. Physics. Someone can believe all they like that they can fly when they jump off a building but Gravity makes sure their expectations are brought down to earth. Literally.

Tesla cars are loss leaders. This isn't a new strategy:

View attachment 111

And my original statement that they are sold at a loss is true. Math is math. This is just a symptom of a wider malaise in the Western world where people think that because they believe something is true, it must be LOL.

Sorry if what I wrote seems to imply I thought you were a Zealot. That was not my intention.

I agree that Tesla's EV making/selling business has an aspect of loss leading. I am not sure if that is primarily Tesla driven, or just a current factor/symptom/variable of the change going on in the world, the world's attempt to transform away from fossil fuels. In this case, the change/transformation is expensive, certainly not for free or paid for only by normal supply and demand, normal production/material costs and suitable product selling prices, etc. Such a normal approach only wouldn't get things moving anywhere fast enough towards moving away from fossil fuels. Tesla's not the authority in deciding why the arrangements are the way they currently are. The world has decided to start changing.

You and I are alike in aspects. I also wouldn't buy an EV right now. Doesn't make sense to me either for my driving needs. Presumably, that will eventually change, for also both of us.

I'll repeat my statement that right now, based on the articles that you and Paul posted, Tesla is not loosing money in their making and selling of each EV business (even if one removed their bit coin investment variable).

 

[Paul Reichert]

Another report, this being remarkably balanced and lacking in favouritism.

Volvo Car USA Reports Strong EV Sales in January, with 24% Year-Over-Year Increase

Volvo Car USA reported strong sales in January, with a total of 7,693 cars sold and an 8.2 percent year-over-year increase. The company's electric vehicles (EVs) saw the biggest growth, with a 80.1 percent year-over-year increase. Recharge models – those with pure electric and plug-in hybrid...

threerowselectric.com

 

[spARTacus]

Just successfully completed a multi-hour few hundred km round trip road voyage today with my ICE, notwithstanding that my area is coming out of a bit of a very cold snap (it went down to minus 34 C last night). Only real issue for me was the standard annoyance at the pump when the tank got empty. The standard 5/6 minute refill time and many dollars later to resolve. Near the start of the voyage, passed a Tesla charging station and an EV was being loaded onto a tow truck flatbed. No idea what the story was for what issues it had, but I am guessing maybe it got low yesterday or last night and then with the cold couldn't recharge (or not fast enough). Maybe it was an old Tesla and was already experiencing range/charge issues, and then the cold was just another extra contributing factor. Perhaps there was also one of several other non EV related reasons for why it was being loaded onto the flatbed, at the charging station. Saw many Tesla EVs on the road driving without any apparent problems, all part of the community of vehicles with also all the ICEs. I gotta say, I don't think I've ever seen a Tesla broken down on/at the actual road. During the voyage, saw quite a few ICEs at the back of tow trucks. I can't imagine being able to have completed the voyage as I did, in an EV. Looking forward to eventually doing that, maybe in a GM EV.

 

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

...well, not really.

Considering that the credits being sold (which according to the articles you posted are what is keeping Tesla profitable) are earned as a by product result of Tesla's making/selling EVs, it just means its a different way at looking at building/selling cars. Right now, Tesla doesn't depend on recuperating from the buyer of EVs the full cost required to build the EV. Instead, Tesla is selling two things as associated to each EV it builds/sells. First, the actual EV. Second the credit sale opportunity that Tesla achieves as a result of building/selling the EV. So, right now Tesla is making money from building/selling of each EV and the cost of making each one is not more than revenue Tesla recuperates as a result of each one.

The actual topic to be discussed with regards to the full cost of what it takes for Tesla to build an EV, is whether or not Tesla will still make money building/selling EVs when their credit selling opportunities start to dry up. Presumably, Tesla hopes by then they will have figured out how to make EVs significantly cheaper than what it costs today.

Or, it's all just a short term shell game that Tesla knows will eventually end (for them), once the situation stabilizes and no one needs to buy their credits anymore.

The government probably doesn't care about the eventual by then situation with specific regards to Tesla, because by then enough of the entire automotive industry will have been transformed and others will replace Tesla if Tesla can't by then figure out how to keep surviving.

Translation take away the government money and Tesla goes poof

 

[spARTacus]

Translation take away the government money and Tesla goes poof

Sure, and take away governments and pretty much everything goes poof, we all just eventually merge into becoming China (dramatic example only).

 

[Ph1llip]

Translation take away the government money and Tesla goes poof

You sound like a vet, your one liners are zingers

 

[Ph1llip]

Sure, and take away governments and pretty much everything goes poof, we all just eventually merge into becoming China (dramatic example only).

For Canadians maybe. Americans have a proud history of despising our government (especially the current one) .

 

[spARTacus]

For Canadians maybe. Americans have a proud history of despising our government (especially the current one) .

Sure, but that doesn't seem to have served the US very well either in the past (across all different shades of past US governments), otherwise there'd not have been the need to make things back great again.

 

[idssteve]

Sure, and take away governments and pretty much everything goes poof, we all just eventually merge into becoming China (dramatic example only).

Depends on definition of "government"? Eh? lol With great respect, i submit that the 13 Colonies who rebelled against East India-Crown "monster corp - monster government" abuse might feel less urgent about the need. ?

Government CAN play useful roles. I like that someone assures we drive on the right side. lol Also a role for corporations. I like that someone makes SOMEthing to drive. lol Great, multi decade, debate about "acceptable dose" of either/both resulted in... "... one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another..."... lol Your friends to your south historically differ vehemently in tolerance of "acceptable dose". Little surprise decedents deriving from those relative choices feel greater, or less, comfort with greater or less dose of either/both? lol

Classic two aspirin metaphor? If two aspirins help a headache, maybe two bottles of aspirin might FIX the headache? ... forever! lol I've been known to take three (tablets) a couple times, btw.. lol others take more. others yet wont touch 2. Humans. Our Master Engineer seems to delight in varying production tolerances! lol

Excess dose of recent decades has arguably generated new pains. imo.

 

[spARTacus]

Depends on definition of "government"? Eh? lol....Our Master Engineer seems to delight if varying production tolerances! lol...

Agree. Probably also why the discussions teased out of the EV topics are interesting, because there is often no right or wrong opinion/answer and much is relative/perspective, in my opinion.

 

[idssteve]

Agree. Probably also why the discussions teased out of the EV topics are interesting, because there is often no right or wrong opinion/answer and much is relative/perspective, in my opinion.

Sorting such is the function of good willed debate. Trustworthy debate. Openly equal debate? lol

Behavior control through information control dates back to village witch doctors...? lol Once "one people" feel disenfranchised from debate, they'll naturally seek to dissolve political bands of connection. Despite Crown, Ministries, and East India "monster corp" self serving assertions, The 13 did NOT dissolve political bands in pursuit of having their WAY. They did so in pursuit of having their SAY! As fellow, equal, human adults! Amazing the trouble a tiny bit of "representation" can prevent! lol