Zero Emission Vehicles

idssteve

Active member
Interesting use of an EV to power an off grid reindeer farm. Appropriate given the time of year! MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Very cool that Ioniq does that. Had to eBay parts from Japan to add that capability to our 05 Prius. That Prius, btw, enjoys 4x NiMH "EV" capacity. Wife has commuted many years, round trip to her clinic, powered solely from our off grid abundance. NO single electron of Nuke power in "her" Prius! Lol.

Its "Atkinson cycle" ice only gets exercised when we think about it. Lol. Yes, I've had it on home brew E100. ECU programming, etc worried wife over "legalities". She's burning dinosaurs the rare times its ice gets exercised. I rub it in every chance. Lol.

I've approached involved parties about provisions to assist grid from EV thru charging stations at company parking. One even in my space. Go figure. Lol. Technically "simple". Financial not so. The energy I'd bring from home is free. BUT we're seeking incentive for EV owners to purchase energy while cheap and sell while expensive. Potentially generating profit from the commute? ??

my parking space will provide some test bed experience. "Retirement" gets more phunn each day!! lol
 
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SteinwayTransitCorp

Well-known member

Buying an Electric Car for a Cold Climate? Double Down on Range.​

CR's experiences in bitter temps show that electric​





It's no secret that electric vehicles lose range in cold weather. But how much decline should owners expect? A Consumer Reports experiment using two electric cars shows how much severely cold temperatures can affect their range.
Car shoppers who live in a cold climate who are considering an EV must buy more range than they may have expected, says Jake Fisher, senior director of auto testing at Consumer Reports. They should make sure the car gets twice their typical daily (warm-weather) needs, Fisher says.
"Typically, we warn new-car shoppers not to buy more vehicle than they need, whether that's seats, cargo room, or towing capacity," Fisher says. "But in this case, EV buyers who drive in colder climates should strongly consider getting a car with a range about double what their daily driving needs are, so they're not left stranded in a cold snap."
ELECTRIC VEHICLE ROAD TESTS
Chevrolet Bolt
Nissan Leaf
Tesla Model 3
Toyota Prius Prime
Hybrid/EV Ratings & Buying Guide
Range has always been a key consideration for EV shoppers, and experts expect more shoppers to get on the EV bandwagon—sales are expected to increase sixfold in the U.S. by 2025. There will be several new entries to choose from, with some available as soon as this year, from the less expensive Hyundai Kona EV to the luxury Jaguar I-Pace SUV. So testing like CR's will be crucial for owners to understand what they're getting into, Fisher says.
That means owners who drive 40 miles each way to work (for a total of 80 miles per day) should make sure their EV is estimated to get at least 160 miles of range unless they can reliably charge while they're at work, he says.
For our experiment, we drove our Tesla Model 3 and our Nissan Leaf, simulating a day of driving with multiple trips. We conducted our experiment during the recent cold snap in late January, when temperatures at our test track in Connecticut dropped to 0° F to 10° F. We chose the two EVs because they're among the two most widely sold in the U.S. and we have them in our fleet. (See results and advice below.)


What Owners Should Do​

Once the temperature hits the freezing mark or below, the demands on the battery increase. There isn't really a hard and fast number where battery performance is affected, but in general, as it gets colder, the voltage and the power output decline for an EV battery, says Sam Abuelsamid, senior analyst at automotive research and consulting firm Navigant.
Where it drops off depends in part on the battery's chemistry and construction, although the decline is more pronounced at temperatures below 0° F, he says. But even moderately cold temperatures mean higher electrical loads to run heaters and window defoggers—all draw from the battery and reduce range.
To best combat those effects and get the most range, keep the car in a garage and plugged in until you're ready to leave, Abuelsamid says. "It takes less energy to maintain a temperature than to raise it, so this can make a significant difference in range."
Most EVs have cabin preconditioning that lets owners set a departure time and desired temperature. The feature turns on the climate control and warms the cabin ahead of departure—but with the car plugged in, it will use energy from the outlet, not the EV's battery.
In the Model 3 owner's manual, Tesla suggests owners warm up their battery to unlock as much range as possible. The manual notes that in cold weather, some of the stored battery energy might not be available until the battery warms up. Indeed, the Model 3 displayed a notification to that effect during our drives for this experiment. If the Model 3 is plugged in, you can heat your battery using wall power by turning on climate control using the mobile app, the manual notes.
In addition, Abuelsamid says, drivers should take advantage of heated seats and steering wheel, if available. That direct heat from the seat and wheel will warm you faster, and more effectively, than waiting for the air in the cabin to warm up.

What We Did​

The CR experiment was designed to simulate a typical daily routine consisting of multiple drives—such as running errands. In this test, we put the EVs through three trips, each about 21 miles. (The cars traveled a total of 64 miles each.) After each of the first two legs, the cars were parked outside for an hour so that the cabin temperature would drop and the cars would have to reheat the cabin for each subsequent leg.

What We Found​

  • The Nissan Leaf (with its base 40 kWh battery; a longer range version is set to go on sale later this year, Nissan has said) has an Environmental Protection Agency-estimated 151-mile range. At the end of our 64-mile drive, the predicted range left was only 10 miles. Using the advertised range, the car should have traveled 141 miles before it was left with only 10. That's more than double the anticipated loss in range.
  • The Tesla Model 3 has an EPA-estimated 310-mile range. At the end of that same 64 mile drive, it indicated there were 189 miles of predicted range. Put another way, the Model 3 used 121 miles worth of range in only 64 miles. That's almost double the anticipated loss.
TESLA MODEL 3NISSAN LEAF
Advertised range (based on EPA estimate)310 miles151 miles
Displayed range at end of 64-mile test189 miles10 miles
Range used to cover 64 miles121 miles141 miles

The vehicles' range displays acknowledged that they wouldn't be going as far as their EPA estimates. The Tesla Model 3 showed a predicted range of 293 and the Leaf showed 126, less than on a warm day. However, our tests showed that even those reduced estimates were still too optimistic.
Tesla told CR that the Model 3 started off with a less-than-normal charge because of how the Model 3's computer evaluates the conditions outside. Tesla's Trip Planner app uses the ambient temperature at the beginning of the trip to predict temperature along the route, based on elevation along the route (temperature typically decreases when you go up in elevation), the company told CR in an email.

EV Batteries and Cold Weather​

It's important to note that EV batteries lose range not because of how the cold weather affects the physical battery but because of the added power demands that come from operating the car in cold weather.
"When it comes to range reductions, this is largely a factor of increased electrical loads on the battery," says Navigant's Abuelsamid. In a typical gas-powered car, the engine generates a lot of heat, which is then used to warm the cabin. An EV doesn't have an engine, and so must rely on other devices to produce that hot air—"and those are a direct drain on the battery," he says. The colder it is, the more energy is needed to keep the cabin at a comfortable temperature.
"Unfortunately, cold temperatures will always have a negative impact on range," Abuelsamid says. That plays out in all sorts of way. "Breathing means condensation on cold glass, which requires use of electric defoggers. Longer nights mean more use of headlights. And cold tires, snow, and slush will increase rolling resistance, all of which will reduce range."
Jeff Wandell, Nissan's EV communications manager, said in an email response to CR questions that "driving conditions, driving style, and climate extremes all have an effect on battery performance and range. This is common across the automotive industry, and new technology is continuously being developed to minimize these effects."










Very cool that Ioniq does that. Had to eBay parts from Japan to add that capability to our 05 Prius. That Prius, btw, enjoys 4x NiMH "EV" capacity. Wife has commuted many years, round trip to her clinic, powered solely from our off grid abundance. NO single electron of Nuke power in "her" Prius! Lol.

Its "Atkinson cycle" ice only gets exercised when we think about it. Lol. Yes, I've had it on home brew E100. ECU programming, etc worried wife over "legalities". She's burning dinosaurs the rare times its ice gets exercised. I rub it in every chance. Lol.

I've approached involved parties about provisions to assist grid from EV thru charging stations at company parking. One even in my space. Go figure. Lol. Technically "simple". Financial not so. The energy I'd bring from home is free. BUT we're seeking incentive for EV owners to purchase energy while cheap and sell while expensive. Potentially generating profit from the commute? ??

my parking space will provide some test bed experience. "Retirement" gets more phunn each da
 

idssteve

Active member

Buying an Electric Car for a Cold Climate? Double Down on Range.​

CR's experiences in bitter temps show that electric​





It's no secret that electric vehicles lose range in cold weather. But how much decline should owners expect? A Consumer Reports experiment using two electric cars shows how much severely cold temperatures can affect their range.
Car shoppers who live in a cold climate who are considering an EV must buy more range than they may have expected, says Jake Fisher, senior director of auto testing at Consumer Reports. They should make sure the car gets twice their typical daily (warm-weather) needs, Fisher says.
"Typically, we warn new-car shoppers not to buy more vehicle than they need, whether that's seats, cargo room, or towing capacity," Fisher says. "But in this case, EV buyers who drive in colder climates should strongly consider getting a car with a range about double what their daily driving needs are, so they're not left stranded in a cold snap."
ELECTRIC VEHICLE ROAD TESTS
Chevrolet Bolt
Nissan Leaf
Tesla Model 3
Toyota Prius Prime
Hybrid/EV Ratings & Buying Guide
Range has always been a key consideration for EV shoppers, and experts expect more shoppers to get on the EV bandwagon—sales are expected to increase sixfold in the U.S. by 2025. There will be several new entries to choose from, with some available as soon as this year, from the less expensive Hyundai Kona EV to the luxury Jaguar I-Pace SUV. So testing like CR's will be crucial for owners to understand what they're getting into, Fisher says.
That means owners who drive 40 miles each way to work (for a total of 80 miles per day) should make sure their EV is estimated to get at least 160 miles of range unless they can reliably charge while they're at work, he says.
For our experiment, we drove our Tesla Model 3 and our Nissan Leaf, simulating a day of driving with multiple trips. We conducted our experiment during the recent cold snap in late January, when temperatures at our test track in Connecticut dropped to 0° F to 10° F. We chose the two EVs because they're among the two most widely sold in the U.S. and we have them in our fleet. (See results and advice below.)


What Owners Should Do​

Once the temperature hits the freezing mark or below, the demands on the battery increase. There isn't really a hard and fast number where battery performance is affected, but in general, as it gets colder, the voltage and the power output decline for an EV battery, says Sam Abuelsamid, senior analyst at automotive research and consulting firm Navigant.
Where it drops off depends in part on the battery's chemistry and construction, although the decline is more pronounced at temperatures below 0° F, he says. But even moderately cold temperatures mean higher electrical loads to run heaters and window defoggers—all draw from the battery and reduce range.
To best combat those effects and get the most range, keep the car in a garage and plugged in until you're ready to leave, Abuelsamid says. "It takes less energy to maintain a temperature than to raise it, so this can make a significant difference in range."
Most EVs have cabin preconditioning that lets owners set a departure time and desired temperature. The feature turns on the climate control and warms the cabin ahead of departure—but with the car plugged in, it will use energy from the outlet, not the EV's battery.
In the Model 3 owner's manual, Tesla suggests owners warm up their battery to unlock as much range as possible. The manual notes that in cold weather, some of the stored battery energy might not be available until the battery warms up. Indeed, the Model 3 displayed a notification to that effect during our drives for this experiment. If the Model 3 is plugged in, you can heat your battery using wall power by turning on climate control using the mobile app, the manual notes.
In addition, Abuelsamid says, drivers should take advantage of heated seats and steering wheel, if available. That direct heat from the seat and wheel will warm you faster, and more effectively, than waiting for the air in the cabin to warm up.

What We Did​

The CR experiment was designed to simulate a typical daily routine consisting of multiple drives—such as running errands. In this test, we put the EVs through three trips, each about 21 miles. (The cars traveled a total of 64 miles each.) After each of the first two legs, the cars were parked outside for an hour so that the cabin temperature would drop and the cars would have to reheat the cabin for each subsequent leg.

What We Found​

  • The Nissan Leaf (with its base 40 kWh battery; a longer range version is set to go on sale later this year, Nissan has said) has an Environmental Protection Agency-estimated 151-mile range. At the end of our 64-mile drive, the predicted range left was only 10 miles. Using the advertised range, the car should have traveled 141 miles before it was left with only 10. That's more than double the anticipated loss in range.
  • The Tesla Model 3 has an EPA-estimated 310-mile range. At the end of that same 64 mile drive, it indicated there were 189 miles of predicted range. Put another way, the Model 3 used 121 miles worth of range in only 64 miles. That's almost double the anticipated loss.
TESLA MODEL 3NISSAN LEAF
Advertised range (based on EPA estimate)310 miles151 miles
Displayed range at end of 64-mile test189 miles10 miles
Range used to cover 64 miles121 miles141 miles

The vehicles' range displays acknowledged that they wouldn't be going as far as their EPA estimates. The Tesla Model 3 showed a predicted range of 293 and the Leaf showed 126, less than on a warm day. However, our tests showed that even those reduced estimates were still too optimistic.
Tesla told CR that the Model 3 started off with a less-than-normal charge because of how the Model 3's computer evaluates the conditions outside. Tesla's Trip Planner app uses the ambient temperature at the beginning of the trip to predict temperature along the route, based on elevation along the route (temperature typically decreases when you go up in elevation), the company told CR in an email.

EV Batteries and Cold Weather​

It's important to note that EV batteries lose range not because of how the cold weather affects the physical battery but because of the added power demands that come from operating the car in cold weather.
"When it comes to range reductions, this is largely a factor of increased electrical loads on the battery," says Navigant's Abuelsamid. In a typical gas-powered car, the engine generates a lot of heat, which is then used to warm the cabin. An EV doesn't have an engine, and so must rely on other devices to produce that hot air—"and those are a direct drain on the battery," he says. The colder it is, the more energy is needed to keep the cabin at a comfortable temperature.
"Unfortunately, cold temperatures will always have a negative impact on range," Abuelsamid says. That plays out in all sorts of way. "Breathing means condensation on cold glass, which requires use of electric defoggers. Longer nights mean more use of headlights. And cold tires, snow, and slush will increase rolling resistance, all of which will reduce range."
Jeff Wandell, Nissan's EV communications manager, said in an email response to CR questions that "driving conditions, driving style, and climate extremes all have an effect on battery performance and range. This is common across the automotive industry, and new technology is continuously being developed to minimize these effects."
Yep. It IS a factor to consider! Which is why our Prius still utilizes NiMH. 4X of OEM capacity. I'd calc'd the wife might need 2x for safely achieving her daily commute withOUT plugging in at her clinic. Nor firing that backup ice. 2x of 2x is how I do things. how I recommend EVERYthing. Lol


I've made a long productive career from following "sales engineers" who'd designed around best case. I'm known for double worst case. A very appreciative client base won't LET me retire. Lol
 

SteinwayTransitCorp

Well-known member
Yep. It IS a factor to consider! Which is why our Prius still utilizes NiMH. 4X of OEM capacity. I'd calc'd the wife might need 2x for safely achieving her daily commute withOUT plugging in at her clinic. Nor firing that backup ice. 2x of 2x is how I do things. how I recommend EVERYthing. Lol


I've made a long productive career from following "sales engineers" who'd designed around best case. I'm known for double worst case. A very appreciative client base won't LET me retire. Lol
I hate to say this, but every time I think I am out. They drag me back in!
 

SteinwayTransitCorp

Well-known member
Lol... thought I'd trained my replacements well enough for restful retirement. My replacements are TOO busy training new hires. Of the BASICs! 6th grade stuff!! Ug.
Hey man, I had some kids work on a very simple project, and I realized no one could even. Read a tape measure, and it was quite scary. I find is today’s generation has zero skills for troubleshooting for free thought
 

SteinwayTransitCorp

Well-known member
Take away the subsidies and tax credits, and the EV world goes away. The government always chooses the dog. Look at their track record if the government picks it you could bet it’s a loser.
 

SteinwayTransitCorp

Well-known member
Well I tried a little test my 3 was out side all night when the temp dipped to 31 degrees. The battery lost 45% of a full charge, in the morning the battery needed 2 full hours to warm up and then start charging.
 

SteinwayTransitCorp

Well-known member
Interesting use of an EV to power an off grid reindeer farm. Appropriate given the time of year! MERRY CHRISTMAS!

any vehicle with any battery can do this emissions free , my Chevy Diesel truck with two batteries can run an invertor for about 6 hours powering a RV fridge or anyting else you want and then start up and charge again. So how is this special?
 

SteinwayTransitCorp

Well-known member
How long can one 12V battery supply 1000W through an inverter? So that equates to powering a 120V appliance that requires 8.3 Amps. How long?? About 30 minutes.

What I am telling you is all this stuff your Excited about is old hat, nothing new here to see at all. Just like an EV nothing new at all, failed before not looking good again……
 

Yamahammer

Member
Here's a very educational video about fast charging a frozen Tesla as well as info about preconditioning the battery while on a long trip in cold weather before charging.

 

SteinwayTransitCorp

Well-known member
Here's a very educational video about fast charging a frozen Tesla as well as info about preconditioning the battery while on a long trip in cold weather before charging.

Unfortunately, most of these videos are garbage. In the Wall Street Journal Tesla was overwhelmed with calls this Christmas weekend about Teslas that would not charge even plugged in overnight battery set to keep warm and everything that the manual says to do. The reality is no matter how you cut it these batteries do not like the cold and unfortunately it is not extreme cold it’s just called cold
 
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SteinwayTransitCorp

Well-known member
U.S. tweaks rules for improving fairness in the upcoming measures to further promote the move away from ICE vehicles.

I guess in your world the government spending money and putting its thumb on the scales of freedom of choice/businesses is ok. If this is all that great why do you need to bribe corporations and people? What will happen when the free money runs out? Well in the EV world it’s all unicorns and gold paved streets.LMAO

I am also glad to see you have no concern about the child slave labor used for all the batteries we use, yup environmental racism at its finest
 
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