Electric cars cost goes up, ICE goes down.

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

New report stated that the cost of driving a mid size ICE car was cheaper than a mid size EV. Let the good times roll!

 

[Ph1llip]

Heh heh heh that'll send the EV"angelizers" bananas.

Here's a very funny (but completely logical) argument about the myth of saving money on EV's:

Warning: the presenter is Australian and typically irreverent so there'll be some language we wouldn't consider proper in a published video but I think it just adds to the authenticity . But he is a mechanical engineer and automotive journalist and so credibility is up there.

P.S. @idssteve's cars excluded of course but not all of us are skilled enough to engineer our own EV's

 

[idssteve]

Well, I myself would ante up for a new EV or ICE if, big GIANT if, someone made one I could tolerate. As is, the wife's home solar fed NiMh Prius home modified for mostly "EV mode", and my home brew "BiOil" fed F350, are our goto transport. Sold my home customized Porsche to a friend who REALLY wanted it more than I. Loll

Same personal issues with cell phones. My hot living hands STILL grasp THE handset I'd ante up for. Nearly ANY price. A 9900. WITH swappable battery! Heehee. Friends have schemed to bury me with that Bold still in "my cold dead hands". Lol.

I only surrendered swappable battery handset once absolutely coerced into barely tolerable fixed battery products of CCP. UG!

Just worked on home rooftop solar yesterday. Did NOT drag a cord up there!! Did NOT waste time with any fixed battery drill. (still own my early 70s Diston fixed NiCad "joke". Lol) Carried a swappable battery Ryobi and a spare battery! And USED the spare! !! My old knees just don't appreciate unnecessary ladder trips these days. Lol. Real TOOLS for getting real WORK done enjoy swappable battery! Imo.

This modernified Slim enjoys swappable battery! A hot swappable "power case", actually. True wireLESS freedom from wires! Go figure. AND its ledges afford grasp! Wonderful typing while "... In Motion"!! "Research" continues for SOME of us. Lol

Several aftermarket EV kits avail. I'll be "modernifying" one (or all? Lol) into my swappable battery EV F350.. Still sorting chemistry but feeling my age. Delays can't prove indefinite. Lol

An old friend from NASA days branded a bunch of round cork gasket production waste disk turned coaster with giant "TUIT". Smaller print proclaims "you can now say you've got a ROUND TUIT". !! The wife will set one near as a hint, sometimes. Lol.

 

[idssteve]

Heh heh heh that'll send the EV"angelizers" bananas.

Here's a very funny (but completely logical) argument about the myth of saving money on EV's:

Warning: the presenter is Australian and typically irreverent so there'll be some language we wouldn't consider proper in a published video but I think it just adds to the authenticity . But he is a mechanical engineer and automotive journalist and so credibility is up there.

P.S. @idssteve's cars excluded of course but not all of us are skilled enough to engineer our own EV's

Ha! Nothing new about "shaft currents". Manifests as "brinelling" or "wash board" on race surface. Shaft is rotating in magnetic field after all. Electrically insulated bearing at one end breaks the circuit and stops the current flow thru bearings and attached equipment. SOP for big gennys. Or bypass bearing with shaft brushes? Gotta be careful to bypass BOTH ends of shaft, tho. Wind turbine design includes "static" drain also. Shaft currents can prove pita. Lol


Good to know. I'll look into fabbing insulated sleeve for outer race of bearings in mine. Or explore ceramic bearings? Hard to believe that was missed. Pretty amateurish imo. Ug.

With shaft currents floating around, I might expect need to protect liquid cooling circuits from "electrolysis erosion"? Maybe include sacrificial anodes?

 

[spARTacus]

...Here's a very funny (but completely logical) argument about the myth of saving money on EV's:[ MEDIA=youtube]_VbDgBZTUWg[/MEDIA]..

I didn't get through all 18 minutes of it. However, seems he's not outlining anything that isn't already outlined elsewhere in more efficient non video presentation format, in terms of the break even point for an EV being close to 10 years of required ownership/operation, at best. The video format of the discussion is basically just for dramatic effect, in my opinion, and actually probably a negative approach for trying to communicate with other than like supporters.

 

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

I didn't get through all 18 minutes of it. However, seems he's not outlining anything that isn't already outlined elsewhere in more efficient non video presentation format, in terms of the break even point for an EV being close to 10 years of required ownership/operation, at best. The video format of the discussion is basically just for dramatic effect, in my opinion, and actually probably a negative approach for trying to communicate with other than like supporters.

the report I referenced was in the Wall Street Journal. It showed that with the cost of electricity going up and the surcharge many utilities place on home consumers that go over 1000 KW in a month. ICE look better and better.

 

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

Ha! Nothing new about "shaft currents". Manifests as "brinelling" or "wash board" on race surface. Shaft is rotating in magnetic field after all. Electrically insulated bearing at one end breaks the circuit and stops the current flow thru bearings and attached equipment. SOP for big gennys. Or bypass bearing with shaft brushes? Gotta be careful to bypass BOTH ends of shaft, tho. Wind turbine design includes "static" drain also. Shaft currents can prove pita. Lol


Good to know. I'll look into fabbing insulated sleeve for outer race of bearings in mine. Or explore ceramic bearings? Hard to believe that was missed. Pretty amateurish imo. Ug.

With shaft currents floating around, I might expect need to protect liquid cooling circuits from "electrolysis erosion"? Maybe include sacrificial anodes?

This video is not what I based my statment on, it was WSJ report that broke out all the economics of the two

 

[idssteve]

This video is not what I based my statment on, it was WSJ report that broke out all the economics of the two

Understood. Not finding a link to a WSJ report in ur post, on my end?

I read MUCH faster than I suffer patience to watch vids. Overheard this one. Coworker in break room. The guy's description of bearing failure caught my ear. Much issue with that on a LOT of our equipment. Absent pretty elementary precautions. Imo.

If designers are THAT steep in learning curve,... Pretty precarious prediction precision ? Lmao

Still, I'd like to read the WSJ report you're talking about? If you'd post it? Lol

 

[Ph1llip]

I didn't get through all 18 minutes of it. However, seems he's not outlining anything that isn't already outlined elsewhere in more efficient non video presentation format, in terms of the break even point for an EV being close to 10 years of required ownership/operation, at best. The video format of the discussion is basically just for dramatic effect, in my opinion, and actually probably a negative approach for trying to communicate with other than like supporters.

Well, I'm not sure what you not going through all of it has anything to do with it?

I'm also not sure what the format has to do with it. Americans own their cars for an average of 8-10 years so STCo's point is still valid and more importantly, based on facts, regardless of which article is quoted.

The funny thing about facts is that you don't have to like them, they stand on their own regardless of the number of "like supporters" .

Perhaps if you disagree with the OP, you can proffer a different point of view with some facts so that we can all have fun instead of criticizing the medium of delivery and the deliverer .

 

[idssteve]

Cost of EV use must include service life expectations and replacement costs of battery? Which WSJ report is OP referencing?

I know Prius NiMH crowding 20yrs that suffer no discernable degradations. A proprietary Toyota special sauce? Combined with essentially 60% SOC limits? LiPo in our handsets certainly indicate shorter service life. Possibly due to routinely exceeding 80% SOC?

And then what labor costs of swapping an embedded batt? MANY batts failed in my old Bolds over a decade +. Ten second swap and back to work. Abject nightmare replacing swelled batt in my K2. Poorly soldered connector pulled from board. Still languishes in my "Round TUIT" collection. Lol.

I realize that Tesla canned cell config can prove more durable than mobile envelope. Less delamination failure? What ARE forecasts for EV LiIon? Based on what criteria? Wandering minds wonder. Lol.

 

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

Understood. Not finding a link to a WSJ report in ur post, on my end?

I read MUCH faster than I suffer patience to watch vids. Overheard this one. Coworker in break room. The guy's description of bearing failure caught my ear. Much issue with that on a LOT of our equipment. Absent pretty elementary precautions. Imo.

If designers are THAT steep in learning curve,... Pretty precarious prediction precision ? Lmao

Still, I'd like to read the WSJ report you're talking about? If you'd post it? Lol

The WSJ cannot be linked as they now will require a paid subscription, something new. On another note a Tesla S on the Highway went poof, no reason just poof.

 

[idssteve]

Cost of EV use must include service life expectations and replacement costs of battery? Which WSJ report is OP referencing?

I know Prius NiMH crowding 20yrs that suffer no discernable degradations. A proprietary Toyota special sauce? Combined with essentially 60% SOC limits? LiPo in our handsets certainly indicate shorter service life. Possibly due to routinely exceeding 80% SOC?

And then what labor costs of swapping an embedded batt? MANY batts failed in my old Bolds over a decade +. Ten second swap and back to work. Abject nightmare replacing swelled batt in my K2. Poorly soldered connector pulled from board. Still languishes in my "Round TUIT" collection. Lol.

I realize that Tesla canned cell config can prove more durable than mobile envelope. Less delamination failure? What ARE forecasts for EV LiIon? Based on what criteria? Wandering minds wonder. Lol.

I put rings in my daughter's 2005 Prius a few years back. It started burning enough lube oil to plug catalyst. VERRRrry expensive catalyst. Lol. The wife's 2005 "EV mode" Prius virtually never runs its ICE. When it does, the poor thing might start and hit full bore high speed in seconds. NO warm up! Cold oil, cold cylinder walls, cold rings, cold OIL rings... Lol. Also cold catalyst, btw. Lol.

Daughter's oil rings had glazed over. Essentially collapsed.. Lube oil formulation proves VERY critical under zero to crazy start up conditions. Anticipating a potential issue, we've always insisted on Toyota's special sauce lube oil for wife's Prius. Daughter just had it changed with "what ever"..

Piston rings depend on coulomb friction interaction maintaining metal-to-metal contact and seal. Improper oil formulation can pose impenetrable hydrodynamic boundary layer on cylinder walls. During warm up, at least. Put simply, rings essentially hydro plane over oil film on cylinder wall. Losing essential metal-to-metal interaction. Daughter demands Toyota "special sauce" lube oil for her Prius now. She reports undetectable lube oil consumption. Historically preferred to burn a little but... lol


In contrast, my 99 7.3 PowerStroke Diesel F350 has used Rotella T6 with an Archoil anti stiction "snake oil" since I purchased used from Monster corp. 840,000 miles. Burns 2qts between changes. Changes have crowded 10k a couple times. Lol. Bore scope inspection revealed visible cylinder wall crosshatch at 700K. A "forever" engine. Imo. Almost a shame to replace with ev motors and batts? Lol.

 

[idssteve]

The WSJ cannot be linked as they now will require a paid subscription, something new. On another note a Tesla S on the Highway went poof, no reason just poof.

Some of us subscribe...

EV is steep in learning curve. Not expecting the unexpected might prove folly? Lol.

Somewhat worrisome for me is thought of getting trapped under water (Ted like? Lol) in a metal cage containing 400+ Volts of uninterruptible voltage! Fire fighters spraying water on a 400+V source seems a recipe for bad things? Idk.

 

[spARTacus]

Well, I'm not sure what you not going through all of it has anything to do with it?

I'm also not sure what the format has to do with it. Americans own their cars for an average of 8-10 years so STCo's point is still valid and more importantly, based on facts, regardless of which article is quoted.

The funny thing about facts is that you don't have to like them, they stand on their own regardless of the number of "like supporters" .

Perhaps if you disagree with the OP, you can proffer a different point of view with some facts so that we can all have fun instead of criticizing the medium of delivery and the deliverer .

I simply didn't find the video useful since it presented facts that one can already otherwise read on one's own, via a faster and more credible presentation method than having to sit through that 18 minute video. For me (in my opinion), the video purpose seems more about appealling to those that would already like and support the positions and mannerisms the video presents, basically almost a rallying call of likewise positions/supporters/opinions probably for the purpose of maximizing YouTube subscribers/views and monetizing/advertising.

I don't disagree with the general opinion that EVs probably take too long for return on investment and lots of otherwise presented arguments are questionable. Whenever I've posted about if an EV would be for me, the position from me has been.... no certainly not now maybe later if things evolve a bit more/better.... However, that video isn't going to do anything (in my opinion) to convince those that would argue otherwise.

 

[idssteve]

I simply didn't find the video useful since it presented facts that one can already otherwise read on one's own, via a faster and more credible presentation method than having to sit through that 18 minute video. For me (in my opinion), the video purpose seems more about appealling to those that would already like and support the positions and mannerisms the video presents, basically almost a rallying call of likewise positions/supporters/opinions probably for the purpose of maximizing YouTube subscribers/views and monetizing/advertising.

I don't disagree with the general opinion that EVs probably take too long for return on investment and lots of otherwise presented arguments are questionable. Whenever I've posted about if an EV would be for me, the position from me has been.... no certainly not now maybe later if things evolve a bit more/better.... However, that video isn't going to do anything (in my opinion) to convince those that would argue otherwise.

Entertaining or irritating, I personally learned a couple things while over hearing the guy. I'd not heard or read of shaft current bearing failures in EV. Assumed the potential but also assumed diligent engineering to have anticipated and mitigated. It's not like freq drives haven't been around for a few decades. Lol.

Rotating shaft in a magnetic field will generate eddy currents manifesting as shaft currents. Even static generated by rubber belts or wind flow over turbine blades? Or poorly placed welding ground? Just a microscopic arc speck on a roller can build and "snowball" into bearing failure. Many hrs, years, miles later. Given the voltages and currents involved in EV, sorta shocking (pun intended) such issue wasn't anticipated and mitigated. Imo.

 

[Ph1llip]

I simply didn't find the video useful since it presented facts that one can already otherwise read on one's own, via a faster and more credible presentation method than having to sit through that 18 minute video. For me (in my opinion), the video purpose seems more about appealling to those that would already like and support the positions and mannerisms the video presents, basically almost a rallying call of likewise positions/supporters/opinions probably for the purpose of maximizing YouTube subscribers/views and monetizing/advertising.

I don't disagree with the general opinion that EVs probably take too long for return on investment and lots of otherwise presented arguments are questionable. Whenever I've posted about if an EV would be for me, the position from me has been.... no certainly not now maybe later if things evolve a bit more/better.... However, that video isn't going to do anything (in my opinion) to convince those that would argue otherwise.

For what it's worth, the guy likes EV's, his only point is that the economic argument isn't there (yet?) which was STCo's point. He's got videos in support of EV's where the use case stacks up.

Me, I'd buy one tomorrow if the financials stack up. But my accountant says they don't.

I wouldn't miss trips to the gas station at all, no siree, and who doesn't want cleaner emissions?

 

[idssteve]

I simply didn't find the video useful since it presented facts that one can already otherwise read on one's own, via a faster and more credible presentation method than having to sit through that 18 minute video. For me (in my opinion), the video purpose seems more about appealling to those that would already like and support the positions and mannerisms the video presents, basically almost a rallying call of likewise positions/supporters/opinions probably for the purpose of maximizing YouTube subscribers/views and monetizing/advertising.

I don't disagree with the general opinion that EVs probably take too long for return on investment and lots of otherwise presented arguments are questionable. Whenever I've posted about if an EV would be for me, the position from me has been.... no certainly not now maybe later if things evolve a bit more/better.... However, that video isn't going to do anything (in my opinion) to convince those that would argue otherwise.

To convince, or not to convince, is that the question? Lol. Can ANY one be convinced atp? Nothing new about political, economic, etc exploitation. Comic expression frequently proves comic release for frustration of perceived disenfranchisement?

Perception of disenfranchisement has little to do with anyone getting their WAY. Everything to do with EVERYone getting their SAY!

SOooo much SAY can't be said these days!

The American revolt wasn't really about taxes. It was about SAY in taxes. When everyone involved feels they had a say, they feel enfranchised even if they don't have their WAY.

 

[Ph1llip]

The WSJ cannot be linked as they now will require a paid subscription, something new. On another note a Tesla S on the Highway went poof, no reason just poof.

Scary. I wonder for comparison how many ICE cars went poof in the early 1900's when they were new as well. I can't find any information on this.

 

[spARTacus]

I remember (I think I remember, maybe I created the memory in my mind, I don't know anymore) something about someone a long time ago (an inventor of one of the early automatic carriages I think) saying that they expected only a few thousand (or maybe a few hundred thousand) automobiles to ever exist in the world, because just too complicated to be able to drive, to maintain, to operate safely, etc... I suspect there were tons of early ICEs (or steam driven carriages) that blew up.

 

[idssteve]

Watkins mill in MO. 1850s vintage woolen mill about 10 miles from Missouri river. Located where a 65hp reciprocating steam engine landed after being thrown (10 miles?) from side wheeler river boat steam explosion. Late 1850s. The engine was deemed too heavy to move by wagon so easier to put to use where found. Powering the three story, three leather belt driven jackshafts, mill virtually built around it. Dozens of cords of firewood per day to fire the thing. Lol.


Guys on the steamboat reported, during a previous stop, condensation leaking at a joint. No survivors. Steam was space age. STEEP in learning curve. That's life. We stop learning at EOL... Lol.