Yamahammer
Member
The information I posted was for the benefit for people who have block heaters in THEIR CARS. Last I checked cars in Florida were not sold with block heaters as standard equipment.
And more good news about Green energy ! !
- Thread starter SteinwayTransitCorp
- Start date
SteinwayTransitCorp
Well-known member
I was not criticizing you the article is old news. Modern cars have block heaters that talk to their computer. This regulates the heat.
Yamahammer
Member
The tutorials are still valid even for the newest temperature controlled block heaters. You don't need to worry about it though, just keep that EV of yours plugged in so that the battery won't freeze down in Clearwater!!!
SteinwayTransitCorp
Well-known member
Please feel free to make another complaint
idssteve
Active member
Starting an engine is a terrible thing to do. To bearings, rings, tappets... also MUCH emissions during startup and during warm up. Starting a cold engine is a terrible, terrible thing to do. Starting a very cold engine is a very terrible thing to do. Lol
I've ALWAYS added temp switches and timers to my block heaters. It's what I do. Controls is much of what I do. Including engine controls. Including big engine controls...
A Midwest mini muni client (not TX) called me about 2300 one night early into the horrific fiasco nearly two years ago. Controls on their BIG engine are set to not permit fueling below jacket water temp of 115F. Per OEM and client negotiated epa rules. This beast is an inline 12 cylinder. 60' long. Cylinder bore size 21.5 inches. Generates 6.5MW at 257 rpm. Its "block heater" was set to maintain 120F. Mostly utilizing waste heat from a near by industry.
Some over educated kno-it-all from behind a desk some where decided to set that temp to 60F. Energy conservation? The industry supplying the waste heat had already texted earlier about why cooling fans were running, dumping waste heat, rather than to heat that beast engine. I was looking over design documents when the generator owner called. He also reported that gas fired space heaters were burning just warming plant floor. Something the heated engine typically heated. Rarely firing the space heat.
Client muni's problem was that electricity prices were about $3000/MWH @6.5MW = that unit was worth $19,500 per hr. Natural Gas was curtailed. Their dual fuel gas turbine was only rated down to 15°F on #2 oil. It was rated -35°F, or less, on JP1. BUT their storage tanks were full of #2. No way to take on a load of #1. That night, at least. Their gas turbine was down for the count that night.
That BIG beast monster engine was made to order for the scenario. IF they had kept keep warm up to 115F. Setting at 60F made it unusable. I suggested they round up salamander heaters and heat the thing up. Probably at least 24hrs at best. A LOT of thermal mass to heat! Thermal expansion a BIG deal for equipment that size, also. They begged if we could bypass that temp limit but the thing won't light much below 115. Pumping raw unburned fuel is all that could happen. This "diesel" runs 11:1 compression btw. Getting compressed combustion air to 900F from -28F in half revolution is NOT happening with jacket water temp at 60F. I couldn't repeal laws of physics over the phone! WAY beyond my pay grade. Lol
About 40hrs later, they called to report success. Rate payers paid $780,000 for the power that engine could have been generating during that 40hr down time. Had "management" just not "fixed till broke". Lol.
I've ALWAYS added temp switches and timers to my block heaters. It's what I do. Controls is much of what I do. Including engine controls. Including big engine controls...
A Midwest mini muni client (not TX) called me about 2300 one night early into the horrific fiasco nearly two years ago. Controls on their BIG engine are set to not permit fueling below jacket water temp of 115F. Per OEM and client negotiated epa rules. This beast is an inline 12 cylinder. 60' long. Cylinder bore size 21.5 inches. Generates 6.5MW at 257 rpm. Its "block heater" was set to maintain 120F. Mostly utilizing waste heat from a near by industry.
Some over educated kno-it-all from behind a desk some where decided to set that temp to 60F. Energy conservation? The industry supplying the waste heat had already texted earlier about why cooling fans were running, dumping waste heat, rather than to heat that beast engine. I was looking over design documents when the generator owner called. He also reported that gas fired space heaters were burning just warming plant floor. Something the heated engine typically heated. Rarely firing the space heat.
Client muni's problem was that electricity prices were about $3000/MWH @6.5MW = that unit was worth $19,500 per hr. Natural Gas was curtailed. Their dual fuel gas turbine was only rated down to 15°F on #2 oil. It was rated -35°F, or less, on JP1. BUT their storage tanks were full of #2. No way to take on a load of #1. That night, at least. Their gas turbine was down for the count that night.
That BIG beast monster engine was made to order for the scenario. IF they had kept keep warm up to 115F. Setting at 60F made it unusable. I suggested they round up salamander heaters and heat the thing up. Probably at least 24hrs at best. A LOT of thermal mass to heat! Thermal expansion a BIG deal for equipment that size, also. They begged if we could bypass that temp limit but the thing won't light much below 115. Pumping raw unburned fuel is all that could happen. This "diesel" runs 11:1 compression btw. Getting compressed combustion air to 900F from -28F in half revolution is NOT happening with jacket water temp at 60F. I couldn't repeal laws of physics over the phone! WAY beyond my pay grade. Lol
About 40hrs later, they called to report success. Rate payers paid $780,000 for the power that engine could have been generating during that 40hr down time. Had "management" just not "fixed till broke". Lol.
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SteinwayTransitCorp
Well-known member
In Denmark they are going to take the heat from a server farm and use it to heat homes, finally a smart thing to do
idssteve
Active member
I'd designed and negotiated this plant's win-win config about 25 years ago. Old concept. Employed by many ethanol plants also. Combined cycle and even bottoming cycle... heck, I've played with Sterling bottom cycle on quite a few applications. Including my off grid home. Lol. A GOOD heat source is a terrible thing to waste! Lol
Thing is, successful designs don't generally derive from optimistic best case criteria. Gotta expect worst case and what-if the what-ifs.. For instance, back up heat should be available if those server farms quit. Or, server farm needs radiator, if home heating gets interrupted.
My design 25 years ago included radiators to reject heat if monster engine didn't use it. Also plant floor included space heat for if waste heat gets interrupted. "what if 101". Lol
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SteinwayTransitCorp
Well-known member
Hey whats old is new again……lol
idssteve
Active member
Nothing new about theft, tho. One IL town had a #4 oil fired recip steam plant from 1890s DC thru 50s. Ultimately replaced by dual fuel RICE. Same old guy in charge the whole time. Very proficient manager. Wrote EVERYthing in hourly logs. A fabulous diary of history. Daily rainfall, hourly temps, etc, etc. Sinking of Lusitania, Titanic, etc. Sent worker after a broom. Had him return 8¢ broom for a 5¢ one. Lol. I took volumes to motel EVERY night! They belonged in a museum some where. They'd promised to give them to a museum or at least let me know if they ever dispose of them. New management... Ug
One new RICE had been installed right near office room. Plant super had just pumped up day tank and was writing down gallons. BIG pencil point break and scratch across page! That big engine (16" bore) had tossed a con rod thru the office! Leaving still visible scars on side of his desk! Next entry... BIG shaky letters... "Engine Wreck!". Date. Time. Loll.
We were upgrading some of the old RiCE there and tracing lines, etc. Two lines penetrated a basement wall to unknown destination. City had water dept guys trace the buried lines... two blocks down the street... to the old Super's old house... He'd surreptitiously heated his house with plant heat for unknown decades! Lol
Ph1llip
Active member
I'm way out of my wheelhouse here but I did some googling of this incident and it appears that instrumentation freezing up was the reason for the interruptions?
I'm curious, by virtue of the fact that it's power infrastructure, wouldn't control infrastructure be adequately protected against something as predictable as a cold snap in winter? Or are decades of underinvestment in upgrades to the traditional grid responsible because decision makers no longer like coal and gas?
SteinwayTransitCorp
Well-known member
Very trues, but I fear…..not for long
idssteve
Active member
Much of my clients' problems (other than top management ignorance loll) rested with fuel availability. Natural gas and diesel were both short. Many mini munis historically just get off grid when grid gets stressed. Ideally carrying native load with their own RICE using NG, sewer gas, bio oils, ... one town carried their load from batteries... for about 55 minutes. Loll. Ultimately, all else failing, #2 diesel proves a last gasp fall back.
Not so THIS time. Transport deliveries were delayed. One plant stupidly operated till engines sucked air... no limit to injection plunger/barrel seizures with air as the lubricant. Ug
Utility is NOT my industry. Dealing with utilities for clients is part of my job description. Consumers et al have grown dependent on surplus capacity reliability that is simply evaporating. Hiring personnel who even knows Ohms law is proving scary, recent years. Imo.
I'm all for better alternatives. Even MORE for better sequencing of alternatives!! I'm reminded of a next door neighbor (back in monster muni hell) who took interest watching me change oil in a vehicle in my drive. He asked why I don't let a mechanic do that... I replied I AM a mechanic. Grew up on a farm. Wear MY jewels below my belt... loll. And, that I knew a guy who's drain plug fell out... Once. Loll.
Saw him draining oil from his car a few days later. I thought good. Then he came over asking if I could give him a ride to go buy new oil... Sequence can prove critical! Loll. Be sure you have replacement in hand before discarding existing!!
I'd suggested he get multi weight oil so he wouldn't have to change again come winter.. His owners manual said 40wt. And that's what he got.. A few months later, changing again for winter weight, he asked how to get the drain plug out. To this day I have NO clue how he got that thing so PHREEKING tight last time! Of course he'd already rounded the hex. I dragged a buzz box over and welded a short 1/2" drive junk (metric loll) socket on what was left of his drain plug. Long breaker bar got it loose. That socket might still be on that drain plug? Lol
Lessons learned? TORQUE the damned drain plug! (at least learn about what that torque "feels" like). Also, have replacement in hand BEFORE discarding existing! Loll. Applies to grid capacity also. Lol
Not so THIS time. Transport deliveries were delayed. One plant stupidly operated till engines sucked air... no limit to injection plunger/barrel seizures with air as the lubricant. Ug
Utility is NOT my industry. Dealing with utilities for clients is part of my job description. Consumers et al have grown dependent on surplus capacity reliability that is simply evaporating. Hiring personnel who even knows Ohms law is proving scary, recent years. Imo.
I'm all for better alternatives. Even MORE for better sequencing of alternatives!! I'm reminded of a next door neighbor (back in monster muni hell) who took interest watching me change oil in a vehicle in my drive. He asked why I don't let a mechanic do that... I replied I AM a mechanic. Grew up on a farm. Wear MY jewels below my belt... loll. And, that I knew a guy who's drain plug fell out... Once. Loll.
Saw him draining oil from his car a few days later. I thought good. Then he came over asking if I could give him a ride to go buy new oil... Sequence can prove critical! Loll. Be sure you have replacement in hand before discarding existing!!
I'd suggested he get multi weight oil so he wouldn't have to change again come winter.. His owners manual said 40wt. And that's what he got.. A few months later, changing again for winter weight, he asked how to get the drain plug out. To this day I have NO clue how he got that thing so PHREEKING tight last time! Of course he'd already rounded the hex. I dragged a buzz box over and welded a short 1/2" drive junk (metric loll) socket on what was left of his drain plug. Long breaker bar got it loose. That socket might still be on that drain plug? Lol
Lessons learned? TORQUE the damned drain plug! (at least learn about what that torque "feels" like). Also, have replacement in hand BEFORE discarding existing! Loll. Applies to grid capacity also. Lol
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Ph1llip
Active member
And this is why I go to a Jeep (st)ealer every service time that message come up on my dash...the manual doesn't even tell me where the drain plug is or what it looks like...
... hats off to people like you!
Paul Reichert
Member
That's a real thing then. I was riding with a friend and the car acted funny then came to a stop. Towed to a garage: no plug in the oilpan! He'd had an oil change a few days before and that was the time it took for the plug to work loose. The engine was toast. Happy ending was the guilty lube shop paid for the new engine giving my friend another few years on the vehicle at the cost of some inconvenience. And a towing charge.
Ph1llip
Active member
Got it. You're not going to believe this but a news source I normally trust (The Washington Times) spun it as an "instrumentation failure"
. You honestly can't trust anyone these days:TVA experienced its highest-ever winter peak-power demand on Dec. 23 as an arctic blast brought blinding blizzards, freezing rain and frigid cold from Maine to Seattle. The Tennessee Valley Authority said in an email that a combination of high winds and freezing temperatures caused its coal-burning Cumberland Fossil Plant to go offline at one point when critical instrumentation froze up. A second coal-burning plant, Bull Run, also went offline, TVA spokesman Scott Brooks said in an email, although he did not provide details. The utility “had issues at some of our natural gas units” as well, Brooks said.
STCo's article was bang on. But see how it was spun to be the complete opposite by the greenwashed media:
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2022/dec/31/power-failures-amplify-calls-for-utility-to-rethin/
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idssteve
Active member
N
a generational "thang"? Lol. Idk. Where do youngsters learn mechanic skills these days? Highschool dismiss time was obvious in MY day... half the hoods on heaps parked out front were up. Cleaning float valves or filing points. Girls who never filed fingernails carried files... incase some points needed filing. Under distributor cap or voltage regulator. Some girls carried metal fingernail files after I explained that the abrasive sand gets stuck into contact surfaces. Loll.
Stopped by a local NAPA store, some years back, seeking a set of delco points for my old MF tractor. The kid was offering up an O ring poker before an old timer came to rescue. Loll.
Did old timers look at us and worry so about humanity's future? Loll. One client frequently comments how he's not as worried about what condition of world we're leaving to our kids as he worries about what condition of kids we're leaving to the world!
not to demean the profession. It's just that, cars or children, NO "pro" LOVES them more than actual owners or parents.
a generational "thang"? Lol. Idk. Where do youngsters learn mechanic skills these days? Highschool dismiss time was obvious in MY day... half the hoods on heaps parked out front were up. Cleaning float valves or filing points. Girls who never filed fingernails carried files... incase some points needed filing. Under distributor cap or voltage regulator. Some girls carried metal fingernail files after I explained that the abrasive sand gets stuck into contact surfaces. Loll.
Stopped by a local NAPA store, some years back, seeking a set of delco points for my old MF tractor. The kid was offering up an O ring poker before an old timer came to rescue. Loll.
Did old timers look at us and worry so about humanity's future? Loll. One client frequently comments how he's not as worried about what condition of world we're leaving to our kids as he worries about what condition of kids we're leaving to the world!
howarmat
Member
Sure thats one plant. Hell I even saw the plant trip trip offline. Overall though there were many problems and that only added to them. Everyone had similar issues like gas availability as priority is given to residents over the generation which is almost like a chicken and egg thing.Got it. You're not going to believe this but a news source I normally trust (The Washington Times) spun it as an "instrumentation failure"
TVA experienced its highest-ever winter peak-power demand on Dec. 23 as an arctic blast brought blinding blizzards, freezing rain and frigid cold from Maine to Seattle. The Tennessee Valley Authority said in an email that a combination of high winds and freezing temperatures caused its coal-burning Cumberland Fossil Plant to go offline at one point when critical instrumentation froze up. A second coal-burning plant, Bull Run, also went offline, TVA spokesman Scott Brooks said in an email, although he did not provide details. The utility “had issues at some of our natural gas units” as well, Brooks said.
STCo's article was bang on. But see how it was spun to be the complete opposite by the greenwashed media.
idssteve
Active member
Lol... Can even a gas oven operate without electricity? Stove tops might. With a match? Loll. Forced air furnaces have displace gravity flow furnace, afaik. ?
It IS a pain to re-energize residential systems after interruption. Every home must be checked for pilot function, etc. Maybe gas fired generation proves easier to restore?
It IS a pain to re-energize residential systems after interruption. Every home must be checked for pilot function, etc. Maybe gas fired generation proves easier to restore?
howarmat
Member
Yeah its not an issue with the generation in that way at all. The generators just cant buy the gas and thus cant run. Or in scarcity the price is extremely high and the plant cant afford to run it.