GM profits hit all time high

[idssteve]

As usual IMO, the truth is not found on the extremes. Market economies are great, but they have certain limitations. Ecosystem inertia is a big one. Going all the way back to the Roman Empire (and even before that) it’s been understood that governments have an important function to play in this. We wouldn’t have trains or shipping if not for private *and* public initiative. We would still have polio and diphtheria as common issues for most people in the world. The jet engine exists because of massive government investment *and* appropriate and necessary regulation. The quiet and efficient ones we all enjoy today are because governments insisted on them (major credit to the EU for leading the world on this). Listen to an old school low-bypass 737 one day if you want to know what private industry does when they’re left to do whatever they want. Or look at a newer 737 for examples of what happens when government oversight doesn’t go *far enough*.

I wasn’t convinced of the science behind the push for EV’s in the 1980s or 1990s. Or early 2000’s. But it is now 40 years after the first scientists and researchers started warning us about the need to shift our technology forward. 40 years.

40 years of studies by countless thousands of people in dozens of countries. Two generations at this point. People don’t love change, I get that. (I used to race, I hate heavy cars, I own 5 sports cars still today. I get it.) But the governments of Japan, Korea, Europe, US, Canada, are aligned in the right direction. I think that’s a very, very good thing. Again, change isn’t fun and I understand the reflexive human reaction against it. I get that. But this is important enough that we should push past that IMO.

GM and other companies have opportunities to make big profits along the way. Good for them. I don‘t begrudge them that at all, and I think profit motive is a great way to get private industry aligned with public needs. Much wealth was created with the emergence of railroads and even with the emergence of gasoline and diesel powered cars. Good for them. If you believe there will be more of that, invest in the right companies (worldwide).

Agree. Lifelong conservationist and naturalist myself. Grew up amongst similar minded farming community.

Also agree that "well regulated" governments play vital roles. Rail industry a good example?

Thing is, how many beast burden wagons were legislatively outlawed BEFORE rail established itself?

Scheduling demise of existing technology BEFORE replacement is ready to fill the vacuum is what generates most heartburn for me.

Much like killing off BBOS BEFORE its BB10 replacement was ready? ?? Lol

Hydro rich Canada could prove a natural fit for EV? IF suitable cold weather strategies are sorted. Coal rich USA generation not so carbon friendly EV.


Few folks get more excited about "new" than I. I just demand that "new" demonstrates genuine forward improvement. Charging any EV with coal fired electricity and expecting to reduce CO2 below gasoline/diesel fired rice seems ludicrous, to me.


Get the sequence right and I'll "believe" stated motives?

As is, actions reveal REAL motives. In all directions. I'll just stay off grid and build my own. Lol

 

[spARTacus]

I was joking that your post had a bit of the famous Kamala word salad going on.

Sorry. Not familiar with that type of salad.

 

[app_Developer]

Hydro rich Canada could prove a natural fit for EV? IF suitable cold weather strategies are sorted. Coal rich USA generation not so carbon friendly EV.


Few folks get more excited about "new" than I. I just demand that "new" demonstrates genuine forward improvement. Charging any EV with coal fired electricity and expecting to reduce CO2 below gasoline/diesel fired rice seems ludicrous, to me.

We should do both. We should encourage EVs and we should move to better ways to produce electricity.

The reality is the first is easier to get political alignment on than the second. And so that’s where we are. I’m not very familiar with Canada, but here in the US the wealthiest states which buy the most cars are states that are taking this issue seriously and will not allow purchase/reg of anything but EVs in a few years. Car companies (and the states which house them) are happy to take the federal incentives for EVs, and also depend on CA, MA, NY, and the other really wealthy states for their customer base. So the political and business stars align and EVs from GM, Ford, Tesla get the support.

Support for clean energy, is unfortunately, a lot more difficult. The US and Canada produce a lot of oil and coal. The US doesn’t have nearly enough clean energy production capacity or transfer infrastructure. And in the US, our extremely poor education standards over the past 50 years or so (as compared to Canada or most countries in the world) is another factor in getting understanding, let alone consensus, around a path forward on difficult issues that would require much more massive change/investment than changing the cars and trucks. It’s also difficult to re-train so many people (in coal-producing states as one example) without a healthy and affordable education system. That’s the reality of the US, and shouldn’t be a surprise to any of us who grew up here or emigrated here.

So yeah, of course we should do both. Many people who support EVs also support greener energy production. Political reality is that one has been an easier fight to win than the other, at least so far. It wouldn’t be sensible, IMO, to drop the EV progress just because green energy is more difficult. We just have to push on both. Or least I will vote for people who push, as best they can, on both issues. It’s all we can do.

 

[spARTacus]

We should do both....So yeah, of course we should do both. Many people who support EVs also support greener energy production. Political reality is that one has been an easier fight to win than the other, at least so far. It wouldn’t be sensible, IMO, to drop the EV progress just because green energy is more difficult. We just have to push on both. Or least I will vote for people who push, as best they can, on both issues. It’s all we can do.

More good programmer logic. I vote for programmers.

 

[Ph1llip]

We should do both. We should encourage EVs and we should move to better ways to produce electricity.

The reality is the first is easier to get political alignment on than the second. And so that’s where we are. I’m not very familiar with Canada, but here in the US the wealthiest states which buy the most cars are states that are taking this issue seriously and will not allow purchase/reg of anything but EVs in a few years. Car companies (and the states which house them) are happy to take the federal incentives for EVs, and also depend on CA, MA, NY, and the other really wealthy states for their customer base. So the political and business stars align and EVs from GM, Ford, Tesla get the support.

Support for clean energy, is unfortunately, a lot more difficult. The US and Canada produce a lot of oil and coal. The US doesn’t have nearly enough clean energy production capacity or transfer infrastructure. And in the US, our extremely poor education standards over the past 50 years or so (as compared to Canada or most countries in the world) is another factor in getting understanding, let alone consensus, around a path forward on difficult issues that would require much more massive change/investment than changing the cars and trucks. It’s also difficult to re-train so many people (in coal-producing states as one example) without a healthy and affordable education system. That’s the reality of the US, and shouldn’t be a surprise to any of us who grew up here or emigrated here.

So yeah, of course we should do both. Many people who support EVs also support greener energy production. Political reality is that one has been an easier fight to win than the other, at least so far. It wouldn’t be sensible, IMO, to drop the EV progress just because green energy is more difficult. We just have to push on both. Or least I will vote for people who push, as best they can, on both issues. It’s all we can do.

It's easy for people to move to EV's because cars are visible, everyday reminders of life. Not so coal power plants that are probably far removed from common sight, and therefore out of mind. That's the political aspect.

The technical aspect (which is way more important) is that no current clean energy source can supply cheap baseload power (if you exclude nuclear, which I don't but some people don't consider it "clean".)

Lastly, we allow stupid people to vote. Hence the pickle we're in.

 

[spARTacus]

.. Lastly, we allow stupid people to vote. Hence the pickle we're in.

An entertaining read there about allowing stupid people to vote. However, not sure if that supports what has been said here in CB about things being stupid because stupid people voted or are in power.

Interestingly, in comparison to some of what is mentioned in that essay, China basically also believes the people shouldn't vote. US Rear Admiral Studeman summarized it as follows as part of a speech not too long ago (although outlining such was not specifically the purpose of his speech):

​

"...China thinks that if they lead the world community that there'll be a more stable system...China also thinks we’ve been the standard bearer for liberal democracies, but can’t deliver solutions for the modern age. They don't think that democracies are efficient, they think they're ineffective, and they think we can't get rid of poor leaders easily enough. They believe liberal democratic societies indulge in excessive individualism and allow too much special interest influence that interferes with advancing the common good..."​

REAR ADMIRAL STUDEMAN DELIVERS REMARKS AT AFCEA WEST OUTLINING CHINA CHALLENGES

On February 15, Commander of the Office of Naval Intelligence and Director of the National Maritime Intelligence-Integration Office, Rear Adm. Mike Studeman, spoke at AFCEA West 2023 in San Diego, providing an intelligence officer’s perspective on China.

www.dvidshub.net

 

[app_Developer]

‘Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’

Sir Winston Churchill

Democracy is hard, but I have yet to read about a better alternative. Intelligence level isn’t the issue, it’s perspective. I am not an expert in mechanical engineering. If some major public policy issue comes up involving a mechanical engineering issue, I’m not going to suddenly forget that I haven’t taken in even one proper class in MechEng, or base my opinion on some google searches on the subject or what my facebook feed said about it. My cousin or friend from the track is probably no more an expert on it than I am. I know what I know, and I also have learned how to read varying opinions on something, read the findings of actual relevant experts (ideally worldwide) and weigh their relative merits, and then have an opinion on it or update my own opinion.

Stupidity isn’t the threat to democratic government. It’s hubris and confirmation bias that are the threat. Social media is broadcast hubris and weaponized confirmation bias.

 

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

What I always find interesting is that if you don’t agree with somebody, you must be against them. I am not against green energy and I am not against an EV. What I am against is a government picking winners and losers. If this technology was so great the public would embrace it on their own but instead you have to force it down your throat. The electric car is not the savior of the universe, nor is it practical. Unless battery technology changes, it’s a dog. Why would I want to buy vehicles that every year Go less distance. yet we are told this is the greatest thing on the planet. Meanwhile, those stripping of the land and the slave labor camps that are being run today so you can drive your EV and be happy. No one cares about. When the article came out about slave, labor, child, slave, labor, nobody cared. Why does nobody not address the fact That every Internal combustion engine can be converted to clean energy with zero emissions. Oh that’s right people than can’t suck off the government Tete.

 

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

‘Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’

Sir Winston Churchill

Democracy is hard, but I have yet to read about a better alternative. Intelligence level isn’t the issue, it’s perspective. I am not an expert in mechanical engineering. If some major public policy issue comes up involving a mechanical engineering issue, I’m not going to suddenly forget that I haven’t taken in even one proper class in MechEng, or base my opinion on some google searches on the subject or what my facebook feed said about it. My cousin or friend from the track is probably no more an expert on it than I am. I know what I know, and I also have learned how to read varying opinions on something, read the findings of actual relevant experts (ideally worldwide) and weigh their relative merits, and then have an opinion on it or update my own opinion.

Stupidity isn’t the threat to democratic government. It’s hubris and confirmation bias that are the threat. Social media is broadcast hubris and weaponized confirmation bias.

First of all if you are in United States we are not a democracy. We are a democratic republic. There is a very large difference. The way you respond I do think you must be personal friends with our vice president.

 

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

By the way, in the early 80s, we had GMC transit buses that burned methane instead of diesel, the emissions from the bus was zero. The problem was these were 671 diesels and you couldn’t force anybody to buy a whole new technology. So now we have electric buses that cost $1 million. Versus the original GMC buses that cost 250,000, but the government got involved and now we have what we have stupidity knows no bounds

 

[app_Developer]

First of all if you are in United States we are not a democracy. We are a democratic republic. There is a very large difference. The way you respond I do think you must be personal friends with our vice president.

Pls explain the difference between a democracy and a democratic republic in your mind? They are two mostly orthogonal ideas, that happen to fit together well.

(there are examples of democracies which are not republics, like the UK. And there are democracies which are republics like France or the US, but all 3 of those countries are democracies, or at least trying to be)

 

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

Not the best comparison, in my opinion.

Also, if people run their dishwashers on the longest water use setting just to do so, and they don't need to but they do anyway, well in my opinion that's just people being stupid.

I can see people looking for the hidden setting to run the heat to dry the dishes. Personally, in my house we prefer the "air dry and auto door crack open at end of cycle" setting. The dishes are dry when we are ready to empty the dishwasher and we don't have to use the electricity to have the heating element run. Regardless, I can see that some people might not have the luxury of waiting as long as we do before needing to empty the dishwasher. If that is the case, then those people have to simply be willing to pay the extra cost for the electricity.

It’s the perfect example. The government mandated something to fix something and what happened it caused another problem so now people use more water for longer periods of time and more electricity. But some government technocrat Feels better telling people how to live in the world is a better place. All of this reminds me of the night so distant past. We all must wear masks, otherwise you want to kill people and you don’t care once again, the government stepped them. What did we learn from that in the end? We learned that the government once again was wrong, but everybody felt good and people could walk around and say see, I care more than you. I am wearing a mask you are not driving an EV today is the equivalent of wearing a mask. That car is not carbon neutral. It is not close to being carbon neutral, and it will never live long enough to be carbon neutral. But the person behind the wheel cares more and obviously is a better person. LMAO

 

[app_Developer]

By the way, in the early 80s, we had GMC transit buses that burned methane instead of diesel, the emissions from the bus was zero. The problem was these were 671 diesels and you couldn’t force anybody to buy a whole new technology. So now we have electric buses that cost $1 million. Versus the original GMC buses that cost 250,000, but the government got involved and now we have what we have stupidity knows no bounds

Engines which burn methane are not zero-emission, they are reduced emission. That is a very substantial difference.

And again, the goal isn’t to reduce particulate emissions. We’re not solving a smog problem, we are solving a climate change problem. Totally different problem. The goal is to reduce the release of carbon emissions into the atmosphere. Please explain how burning methane (and leaving everything else as is) would solve that?

EV’s alone dont’ solve the whole issue either, but they solve part of the problem (which is a good start), are much more efficient at the point of application (transfer of energy from the ‘fuel’ to the wheels), and give us a path to then go back and solve the upstream production problems. Methane doesn’t do any of that.

 

[spARTacus]

What I always find interesting is that if you don’t agree with somebody, you must be against them. I am not against green energy and I am not against an EV. What I am against is a government picking winners and losers. If this technology was so great the public would embrace it on their own but instead you have to force it down your throat. The electric car is not the savior of the universe, nor is it practical. Unless battery technology changes, it’s a dog. Why would I want to buy vehicles that every year Go less distance. yet we are told this is the greatest thing on the planet. Meanwhile, those stripping of the land and the slave labor camps that are being run today so you can drive your EV and be happy. No one cares about. When the article came out about slave, labor, child, slave, labor, nobody cared. Why does nobody not address the fact That every Internal combustion engine can be converted to clean energy with zero emissions. Oh that’s right people than can’t suck off the government Tete.

Whomever you hear proclaiming that EVs are the greatest things on the planet, are idiots. If I were you, I would ignore them. They are no better than propaganda machines, and are probably also just purposely trying to get under the skin of others. There's no room as part of good discussion, for crappy propaganda like that, in my opinion. However, suggesting that anyone who embraces EVs or a move away from fossil fuels is just wanting to suck off the government tete, we'll that's probably just going to be perceived by many as simply reinforcing a for or against stance.

 

[spARTacus]

It’s the perfect example. The government mandated something to fix something and what happened it caused another problem so now people use more water for longer periods of time and more electricity. But some government technocrat Feels better telling people how to live in the world is a better place. All of this reminds me of the night so distant past. We all must wear masks, otherwise you want to kill people and you don’t care once again, the government stepped them. What did we learn from that in the end? We learned that the government once again was wrong, but everybody felt good and people could walk around and say see, I care more than you. I am wearing a mask you are not driving an EV today is the equivalent of wearing a mask. That car is not carbon neutral. It is not close to being carbon neutral, and it will never live long enough to be carbon neutral. But the person behind the wheel cares more and obviously is a better person. LMAO

I think good and bad examples could be found out of everything. I am curious about if people think the US Government is doing good or harm with some of its mandates about China?

 

[Ph1llip]

Pls explain the difference between a democracy and a democratic republic in your mind? They are two mostly orthogonal ideas, that happen to fit together well.

(there are examples of democracies which are not republics, like the UK. And there are democracies which are republics like France or the US, but all 3 of those countries are democracies, or at least trying to be)

While I'm no polsci expert, what I think STCo meant to say is that we're a Federated Republic as opposed to a pure Democracy.

A feature of a Federated (Federal) Republic is that some powers are reserved to the states while some are reserved for the Commonwealth. One of the quirky outcomes of this (which always confuses non-Americans) is that a presidential candidate can win the popular vote but lose an election. The "unit of say" isn't an individual but an aggregation of individuals such as a State. It acts as an equalizer so that smaller population states are not railroaded by larger states, which is what would happen in a pure Democracy.

 

[Ph1llip]

Stupidity isn’t the threat to democratic government. It’s hubris and confirmation bias that are the threat. Social media is broadcast hubris and weaponized confirmation bias.

Yes, but the people who follow it are the people I view as stupid .

And I agree. Democracy is the best way of life we've currently got going. But it would be so much better like as you said above, if people would behave intelligently and recognize their shortcomings and cede to experts when needed. But they don't. Hence the reason I tar them with my simplistic brush of "stupid" .

 

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

Pls explain the difference between a democracy and a democratic republic in your mind? They are two mostly orthogonal ideas, that happen to fit together well.

(there are examples of democracies which are not republics, like the UK. And there are democracies which are republics like France or the US, but all 3 of those countries are democracies, or at least trying to be)

Wrong in a democracy the mob rules, everything is done by the majority. In a Republic every vote counts not just the majority. These are very big differences, and the Democratic party now hates it, that's why the Electoral College is so important, every state is important just not the big one.

 

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

I think good and bad examples could be found out of everything. I am curious about if people think the US Government is doing good or harm with some of its mandates about China?

First, I think we should not be doing any large-scale business with China plain and simple. They are our enemy. Plain and simple, they steal from any company that lets greed overshadow smart thinking. Then they cry when China builds the same product for less......LMAO. Boeing comes to mind, in the 90's they moved all production of the MD-80 to China to save money. Then the issues started, every jet had to be flown back to Washington State to be repaired. Best part a Chinese manufacture soon came out with a copy of the MD-80. Greed will be the downfall of the West.

 

[spARTacus]

First, I think we should not be doing any large-scale business with China plain and simple. They are our enemy. Plain and simple, they steal from any company that lets greed overshadow smart thinking. Then they cry when China builds the same product for less......LMAO. Boeing comes to mind, in the 90's they moved all production of the MD-80 to China to save money. Then the issues started, every jet had to be flown back to Washington State to be repaired. Best part a Chinese manufacture soon came out with a copy of the MD-80. Greed will be the downfall of the West.

I won't disagree with you on that, but "..let the free market sort it out..." wouldn't help for the situation. The free market would have just kept outsourcing everything to China, for the benefit of corporate profits and efficiencies. Sure some companies would eventually smarten up when through loss of IP they go out of business. However, I'll speculate that the stuff the Rear Admiral was going on about (see the reference to his speach that I earlier posted) is only going to be achieved through government regulation and oversight.