Switzerland considers restrictions on EV use this winter

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

Some mini muni grid operations are considering leveraging connected and willing EV battery as capacity. Key word willing. Loll.

With these things deployed, utilities in Switzerland and California might PAY to keep participating EVs plugged in?

Each EV with V2G charger might earn $15,000 over 10 years

Storing power during off-peak hours and selling it at peak hours could profit EV owners, but the advantages will vary widely.

www.greencarreports.com

I could see this working well, right up to the moment when somebody realizes my car is dead and I can’t charge it

 

[idssteve]

I could see this working well, right up to the moment when somebody realizes my car is dead and I can’t charge it

Yep. Individual users must command full authority over minimum depth and permissible timing. I, myself, would likely keep spare batt on charger programmed to be charged when arrival is scheduled. Ready for swap upon my arrival.

If plans change I'd want to alter scheduling via mobile.

Much details to sort but, since all grids lack adequate storage, these things might actually assist a grid? If intelligently implemented? Good luck with that. Lol

Muni grid operators I'm interacting with really worry over L3 chargers. They might handle a few okay. BUT let dozens, hundreds, thousands... drive home after shift change at local plant and plug in L3.. a major worry...

Town I stopped in today peaked at 3400kW today. Adding 240KW for a single 1000A charger represents significant portion. 10 of those plugged in simultaneously would overwhelm their grid. 100?

 

[idssteve]

Yep. Individual users must command full authority over minimum depth and permissible timing. I, myself, would likely keep spare batt on charger programmed to be charged when arrival is scheduled. Ready for swap upon my arrival.

If plans change I'd want to alter scheduling via mobile.

Much details to sort but, since all grids lack adequate storage, these things might actually assist a grid? If intelligently implemented? Good luck with that. Lol

Muni grid operators I'm interacting with really worry over L3 chargers. They might handle a few okay. BUT let dozens, hundreds, thousands... drive home after shift change at local plant and plug in L3.. a major worry...

Town I stopped in today peaked at 3400kW today. Adding 240KW for a single 1000A charger represents significant portion. 10 of those plugged in simultaneously would overwhelm their grid. 100?

That particular muni grid's main xfmr is only rated 5000KW. With fans. The 20mile long 34.5KV line feeding it droops significantly at that load. Both voltage and physically! Resistive heating physically lengthens such lines under stress. Making them physically droop between poles. Lol. They've plans for upgrading to 69KV but a decade away, at best. Obviously rate paying citizens must be convinced of the rationale.

No "simple" solution other than filling in with their native generation. Mostly NG fired dual fuel monster RICE. They've retired and scrapped almost half of that historic capacity rather than spend 100's of $K on RICE NESHAP after treatment. Aftertreatment that some of those very clean antiques simply don't generate hot enough exhaust to light off catalysts. RICE design philosophy thru 50s, at least, was to work that energy into the generator. Rather than up the stack. Lol

This muni's native generating capacity has historically proven "firm" for their all time peak. With a 17% margin after loss of their biggest unit... that 5000kW xfmr.. Accommodating just ten of 1000A L3 chargers would've exceeded their "firm" position. 3400+10(240)= 5800kW. In my aging head. A concern for DILIGENT operation.

That 5000KW tie evaporated a couple months ago thanks to a drunk knocking a pole down somewhere along that meandering 20mile tenuous feed. No serious injury I'm told. Demanded a couple days to repair. All citizens knew of it was about a ten minute outage till native RICE fired and restored muni grid.

Some means of coordinating EV charging needs some discussion, at least. Ability to buy power from citizen storage (ev chargers) might prove ONE possible win-win?

 

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

That particular muni grid's main xfmr is only rated 5000KW. With fans. The 20mile long 34.5KV line feeding it droops significantly at that load. Both voltage and physically! Resistive heating physically lengthens such lines under stress. Making them physically droop between poles. Lol. They've plans for upgrading to 69KV but a decade away, at best. Obviously rate paying citizens must be convinced of the rationale.

No "simple" solution other than filling in with their native generation. Mostly NG fired dual fuel monster RICE. They've retired and scrapped almost half of that historic capacity rather than spend 100's of $K on RICE NESHAP after treatment. Aftertreatment that some of those very clean antiques simply don't generate hot enough exhaust to light off catalysts. RICE design philosophy thru 50s, at least, was to work that energy into the generator. Rather than up the stack. Lol

This muni's native generating capacity has historically proven "firm" for their all time peak. With a 17% margin after loss of their biggest unit... that 5000kW xfmr.. Accommodating just ten of 1000A L3 chargers would've exceeded their "firm" position. 3400+10(240)= 5800kW. In my aging head. A concern for DILIGENT operation.

That 5000KW tie evaporated a couple months ago thanks to a drunk knocking a pole down somewhere along that meandering 20mile tenuous feed. No serious injury I'm told. Demanded a couple days to repair. All citizens knew of it was about a ten minute outage till native RICE fired and restored muni grid.

Some means of coordinating EV charging needs some discussion, at least. Ability to buy power from citizen storage (ev chargers) might prove ONE possible win-win?

The system is already set upon LI, started years ago under Long Island Lighting. If your house had a whole house generator, they gave you a discount off your bill if they could force your house off the grid. If this happened more than once in 30 days than the charge back went up. Worked well, but with batteries if the grid is already having issues. When the battery level drops to a certain point. People will want to recharge. putting a load back on the grid, forcing the same issue. ‘A tiger chasing its tail” comes to mind.

 

[idssteve]

The system is already set upon LI, started years ago under Long Island Lighting. If your house had a whole house generator, they gave you a discount off your bill if they could force your house off the grid. If this happened more than once in 30 days than the charge back went up. Worked well, but with batteries if the grid is already having issues. When the battery level drops to a certain point. People will want to recharge. putting a load back on the grid, forcing the same issue. ‘A tiger chasing its tail” comes to mind.

Yes. Absolutely. Batteries don't add energy. Only capacity. Capacity that must be coordinated thru some means of scheduling. No EASY task.

Batteries merely shift schedule points. Generation adds both energy and capacity. Pretty near 100% availability with fossil. Rarely exceeding 50% availability with solar or wind. ?

System has survived fine without batteries on fossil. If, BIG if, the goal is to minimize fossil fired generation, SOME strategies for shifting availability scheduling are worth discussion. Imo. Hence battery coordination.

Hypothetical discussions I keep getting dragged into (my clients coordinate their activities with local utilities) are including individual dominion over how and when a citizen's battery will be used. Utility commission members are frequently known by first names in these small towns. Lol.

MUCH citizen interaction happens over coffee at local cafe. Lol. Citizens who WONT be happy if they miss the "meeting" because Utility drained their car's battery. !! Lol

 

[idssteve]

Yes. Absolutely. Batteries don't add energy. Only capacity. Capacity that must be coordinated thru some means of scheduling. No EASY task.

Batteries merely shift schedule points. Generation adds both energy and capacity. Pretty near 100% availability with fossil. Rarely exceeding 50% availability with solar or wind. ?

System has survived fine without batteries on fossil. If, BIG if, the goal is to minimize fossil fired generation, SOME strategies for shifting availability scheduling are worth discussion. Imo. Hence battery coordination.

Hypothetical discussions I keep getting dragged into (my clients coordinate their activities with local utilities) are including individual dominion over how and when a citizen's battery will be used. Utility commission members are frequently known by first names in these small towns. Lol.

MUCH citizen interaction happens over coffee at local cafe. Lol. Citizens who WONT be happy if they miss the "meeting" because Utility drained their car's battery. !! Lol

These guys, rather "simplistically" broke their bank installing a 5MW solar farm. Online just a few years ago. Only to discover it doesn't lift a finger to assist at night. Lol. They're looking into batteries for night time. Extreme ticker shock (one town father suffers heart maladies. Lol) for a bank to carry 5000KW for 12 hrs. I've invited them to visit my off grid home to see my home built NiFe batts. Something some farmers suffer little problem building themselves...

BUT, I also explained that to pull 5000KW@12hrs, you must charge them at least 5000KW@12hrs. In order to do that while simultaneously carrying native 5000kW load means they'll need to add another 5000kW solar farm! At LEAST. They're not happy. I feel for my colleague engineer next council meeting. Ug

 

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

Yes. Absolutely. Batteries don't add energy. Only capacity. Capacity that must be coordinated thru some means of scheduling. No EASY task.

Batteries merely shift schedule points. Generation adds both energy and capacity. Pretty near 100% availability with fossil. Rarely exceeding 50% availability with solar or wind. ?

System has survived fine without batteries on fossil. If, BIG if, the goal is to minimize fossil fired generation, SOME strategies for shifting availability scheduling are worth discussion. Imo. Hence battery coordination.

Hypothetical discussions I keep getting dragged into (my clients coordinate their activities with local utilities) are including individual dominion over how and when a citizen's battery will be used. Utility commission members are frequently known by first names in these small towns. Lol.

MUCH citizen interaction happens over coffee at local cafe. Lol. Citizens who WONT be happy if they miss the "meeting" because Utility drained their car's battery. !! Lol

Time is coming when the reality of the green energy will stomp all over the hope and change group.

 

[Ph1llip]

Time is coming when the reality of the green energy will stomp all over the hope and change group.

They won't be intelligent enough to realize it. "Border problem? What border problems?"

 

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

They won't be intelligent enough to realize it. "Border problem? What border problems?"

Reality what a concept

 

[idssteve]

Reality what a concept

Ultimately, reality enjoys the final laugh. All us mortals can do is smile back? Loll. And maybe, with best of intentions, surmise if our Creator is laughing? Or crying?? lol

Some folks learn at tender age the lazy "freedom" (slavery?) of excuses. Self inflicted ignorance proving a wondrously effective "excuse". Lol

One thing that flies less than pigs, on a farm, is excuses. I enjoy visiting farming communities simply because of cultural intolerance of excuses. Yes, we'll sometimes acknowledge that something sux. BUT, with the exact same breath, ask how do we fix this? For NEXT year?? For next generation??? The future is what farming is ALL about.

Selectively ignorant politicians find frighteningly frequent "job security" thru excuses. As with infamously crooked mechanics, where's job security in TRULY fixing ANY problem? Always claim we're making "progress". That "happy days are just around the corner". We just need a little more money. A little more personal liberty... Familiar?

NOthing new about "panic politics", tho. Age old. Little blows credibility quicker than overstatement, tho. Imo. Real problem for folks of THIS community is, no matter how "green" they go, it's never "left" enough to escape the "deplorables basket". Lol

There ARE some ppl in the world who's every breath drips with HATE for "Amerika"? Citizens of other nations are entitled to their hatreds. Thing is, once such hatred is unmistakably professed, what credibility can be attributed to advocacy of possibly "capsizing" policies?

The wife's parents quote passages from "Steal this book" while advocating destructively counterproductive "environmentalism". They are anti capitalists FIRST. A little environmental injury is justified if it injures capitalism most. I kid you not! I'm quoting them! Imagine Thanksgiving dinners! Loll.

They do freely compliment our off grid lifestyle. While begrudging as some sort of "sin" the comfort our nearly zero impact homestead affords. It melts their synapses! Another quote. Loll.

As a lifelong naturalist, conservationist, zero impact advocate, ... I dearly resent the incalculable wreckage SOME have wreeked by hijacking genuine environmentalism. For their own political, economic, social,... agendas. (sorry Honey. ). The wife professes utter agreement with my resentment. Btw. Her parents still ask if I'd hypnotized her. Loll. That's a tool of HER profession! Engineers convince with numbers... Lol

That said, the engineer in me would likely have spec'd enough lifeboats for ALL of Titanic's passengers. Plus a healthy margin of safety. Mini munis historically considered their generation "firm" if it can loose its largest generator and still pull 17% beyond all time peak demand with what's left. Likewise, I might've spec'd Titanic's lifeboat capacity with 17% mos beyond body count without the largest lifeboat! That's what I do.

Yet, what if weight of all of those lifeboats stacked on deck caused the vessel to capsize? ?? Lol SOMEtimes a bigger picture proves relevant?

Are human activities responsible for perceived climatic changes? It IS possible. Imo. Way, WAY too complex for current human knowledge to conclude beyond reasonable doubt. Either way, imo.

If correlation proves causation, Earth's diminishing magnetic shield correlates also? Heated oceans certainly release CO2 much like hot beer. Lol

Thing is, I'm personally okay with reasonable doubt. I don't need proof beyond reasonable doubt that rubber smell is originating from one of MY tires. I'm okay with pulling over and checking tires if I merely suspect a problem. I'm okay with mitigating possible threats to our climate if we merely suspect a problem.

Put another way, I'm okay with grabbing an "equalizer" if I merely suspect late night noises in the back room to be a problem.. Lol

That said, what's gained by capsizing the vessel with life boats? Arguments might be made for capsizing USA? Western capitalism itself?? That CCP will save the planet once "great satan Amerika" smolders in ashes? ? (quoting the wife's parents again). Ug

Is He laughing or crying? Both?? I've been invited to a near by Sunday School this morning. Need all I can get. Lol.

 

[Ph1llip]

Ultimately, reality enjoys the final laugh. All us mortals can do is smile back? Loll. And maybe, with best of intentions, surmise if our Creator is laughing? Or crying?? lol

Some folks learn at tender age the lazy "freedom" of excuses. Self inflicted ignorance proving a wondrously effective "excuse". Lol

One thing that flies less than pigs, on a farm, is excuses. I enjoy visiting farming communities simply because of cultural intolerance of excuses. Yes, we'll sometimes acknowledge that something sux. BUT, with the exact same breath, ask how do we fix this? For NEXT year?? For next generation??? The future is what farming is ALL about.

Selectively ignorant politicians find frighteningly frequent "job security" thru excuses. As with infamously crooked mechanics, where's job security in TRULY fixing ANY problem? Always claim we're making "progress". That "happy days are just around the corner". We just need a little more money. A little more personal liberty... Familiar?

NOthing new about "panic politics", tho. Age old. Little blows credibility quicker than overstatement, tho. Imo. Real problem for folks of THIS community is, no matter how "green" they go, it's never "left" enough to escape the "deplorables basket". Lol

There ARE some ppl in the world who's every breath drips with HATE for "Amerika"? Citizens of other nations are entitled to their hatreds. Thing is, once such hatred is unmistakably professed, what credibility can be attributed to advocacy of possibly "capsizing" policies?

The wife's parents quote passages from "Steal this book" while advocating destructively counterproductive "environmentalism". They are anti capitalists FIRST. A little environmental injury is justified if it injures capitalism most. I kid you not! I'm quoting them! Imagine Thanksgiving dinners! Loll.

They do freely compliment our off grid lifestyle. While begrudging as some sort of "sin" the comfort our nearly zero impact homestead affords. It melts their synapses! Another quote. Loll.

As a lifelong naturalist, conservationist, zero impact advocate, ... I dearly resent the incalculable wreckage SOME have wreeked by hijacking genuine environmentalism. For their own political, economic, social,... agendas. (sorry Honey. ). The wife professes utter agreement with my resentment. Btw. Her parents still ask if I'd hypnotized her. Loll. That's a tool of HER profession! Engineers convince with numbers... Lol

That said, the engineer in me would likely have spec'd enough lifeboats for ALL of Titanic's passengers. Plus a healthy margin of safety. Mini munis historically considered their generation "firm" if it can loose its largest generator and still pull 17% beyond all time peak demand with what's left. Likewise, I might've spec'd Titanic's lifeboat capacity with 17% mos beyond body count without the largest lifeboat! That's what I do.

Yet, what if weight of all of those lifeboats stacked on deck caused the vessel to capsize? ?? Lol SOMEtimes a bigger picture proves relevant?

Are human activities responsible for perceived climatic changes? It IS possible. Imo. Way, WAY too complex for current human knowledge to conclude beyond reasonable doubt. Either way, imo.

If correlation proves causation, Earth's diminishing magnetic shield correlates also? Heated oceans certainly release CO2 much like hot beer. Lol

Thing is, I'm personally okay with reasonable doubt. I don't need proof beyond reasonable doubt that rubber smell is originating from one of MY tires. I'm okay with pulling over and checking tires if I merely suspect a problem. I'm okay with mitigating possible threats to our climate if we merely suspect a problem.

Put another way, I'm okay with grabbing an "equalizer" if I merely suspect late night noises in the back room to be a problem.. Lol

That said, what's gained by capsizing the vessel with life boats? Arguments might be made for capsizing USA? Western capitalism itself?? That CCP will save the planet once "great satan Amerika" smolders in ashes? ? (quoting the wife's parents again). Ug

Is He laughing or crying? Both?? I've been invited to a near by Sunday School this morning. Need all I can get. Lol.

Lots to unpack here. But I am comforted and act according to my Universal Theory of Everything, which has never failed me and provides good incentive to overplan and over-engineer like you do: Most People Are Stupid®

 

[idssteve]

Lots to unpack here. But I am comforted and act according to my Universal Theory of Everything, which has never failed me and provides good incentive to overplan and over-engineer like you do: Most People Are Stupid®

Apologies to all for the run on. Didn't realize it was so long. Forgotten what happens when Bold gets under thumb... Lol

 

[idssteve]

Lots to unpack here. But I am comforted and act according to my Universal Theory of Everything, which has never failed me and provides good incentive to overplan and over-engineer like you do: Most People Are Stupid®

Hoping for best case scenario is natural. Planning and designing for best case scenario is folly. At best. Possibly treasonous sabotage at worst? Malpractice of SOME sort? imo.

Humanity has survived multiple ice ages by hoping for better while planning for worse. Imo. We're steep in EV learning curve. Only prudent due diligence for Switzerland, or ANY Nation, to discuss and debate contingent strategies. Imo.

 

[Laura Knotek]

Ultimately, reality enjoys the final laugh. All us mortals can do is smile back? Loll. And maybe, with best of intentions, surmise if our Creator is laughing? Or crying?? lol

Some folks learn at tender age the lazy "freedom" (slavery?) of excuses. Self inflicted ignorance proving a wondrously effective "excuse". Lol

One thing that flies less than pigs, on a farm, is excuses. I enjoy visiting farming communities simply because of cultural intolerance of excuses. Yes, we'll sometimes acknowledge that something sux. BUT, with the exact same breath, ask how do we fix this? For NEXT year?? For next generation??? The future is what farming is ALL about.

Selectively ignorant politicians find frighteningly frequent "job security" thru excuses. As with infamously crooked mechanics, where's job security in TRULY fixing ANY problem? Always claim we're making "progress". That "happy days are just around the corner". We just need a little more money. A little more personal liberty... Familiar?

NOthing new about "panic politics", tho. Age old. Little blows credibility quicker than overstatement, tho. Imo. Real problem for folks of THIS community is, no matter how "green" they go, it's never "left" enough to escape the "deplorables basket". Lol

There ARE some ppl in the world who's every breath drips with HATE for "Amerika"? Citizens of other nations are entitled to their hatreds. Thing is, once such hatred is unmistakably professed, what credibility can be attributed to advocacy of possibly "capsizing" policies?

The wife's parents quote passages from "Steal this book" while advocating destructively counterproductive "environmentalism". They are anti capitalists FIRST. A little environmental injury is justified if it injures capitalism most. I kid you not! I'm quoting them! Imagine Thanksgiving dinners! Loll.

They do freely compliment our off grid lifestyle. While begrudging as some sort of "sin" the comfort our nearly zero impact homestead affords. It melts their synapses! Another quote. Loll.

As a lifelong naturalist, conservationist, zero impact advocate, ... I dearly resent the incalculable wreckage SOME have wreeked by hijacking genuine environmentalism. For their own political, economic, social,... agendas. (sorry Honey. ). The wife professes utter agreement with my resentment. Btw. Her parents still ask if I'd hypnotized her. Loll. That's a tool of HER profession! Engineers convince with numbers... Lol

That said, the engineer in me would likely have spec'd enough lifeboats for ALL of Titanic's passengers. Plus a healthy margin of safety. Mini munis historically considered their generation "firm" if it can loose its largest generator and still pull 17% beyond all time peak demand with what's left. Likewise, I might've spec'd Titanic's lifeboat capacity with 17% mos beyond body count without the largest lifeboat! That's what I do.

Yet, what if weight of all of those lifeboats stacked on deck caused the vessel to capsize? ?? Lol SOMEtimes a bigger picture proves relevant?

Are human activities responsible for perceived climatic changes? It IS possible. Imo. Way, WAY too complex for current human knowledge to conclude beyond reasonable doubt. Either way, imo.

If correlation proves causation, Earth's diminishing magnetic shield correlates also? Heated oceans certainly release CO2 much like hot beer. Lol

Thing is, I'm personally okay with reasonable doubt. I don't need proof beyond reasonable doubt that rubber smell is originating from one of MY tires. I'm okay with pulling over and checking tires if I merely suspect a problem. I'm okay with mitigating possible threats to our climate if we merely suspect a problem.

Put another way, I'm okay with grabbing an "equalizer" if I merely suspect late night noises in the back room to be a problem.. Lol

That said, what's gained by capsizing the vessel with life boats? Arguments might be made for capsizing USA? Western capitalism itself?? That CCP will save the planet once "great satan Amerika" smolders in ashes? ? (quoting the wife's parents again). Ug

Is He laughing or crying? Both?? I've been invited to a near by Sunday School this morning. Need all I can get. Lol.

The main problem I have with farming nowadays is that corporate mega farms are hurting the environment, hurting our health, and hurting family farmers who care about all of the above.

 

[Laura Knotek]

Not to mention that family farmers also care about their animals, which is something that corporate mega farms do not.

 

[idssteve]

The main problem I have with farming nowadays is that corporate mega farms are hurting the environment, hurting our health, and hurting family farmers who care about all of the above.

Don't get me started on monster corps. Just got an ear full over Sunday School "discussion" this morning. Loll.

Among many things, some HUMAN, SOME where should ALWAYS suffer/enjoy personal responsibility. Imo. THEY should suffer liability for THEIR genetically "engineered" pollen drifting over into neighbor's crops! For starters. Instead, it's on small heirloom seed farmers to PROVE they're innocent of "IP theft" of the stupid pollen! Ug.

 

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

Ok while i agree that anytime you alter genetics you need to be supper cautious. That said there are many great -pants that have come from genetic engineering. One example is sweet corn, crossed with sugar beats. Many years ago Monsanto came up with rice that would end childhood blindness in the East. Fully tested and ready, first crop planted and destroyed by environmental loons. Much better that children go blind.

 

[idssteve]

Ok while i agree that anytime you alter genetics you need to be supper cautious. That said there are many great -pants that have come from genetic engineering. One example is sweet corn, crossed with sugar beats. Many years ago Monsanto came up with rice that would end childhood blindness in the East. Fully tested and ready, first crop planted and destroyed by environmental loons. Much better that children go blind.

Of course what constitutes "fully tested"? MANY things we are taking for granted have NOT enjoyed multi generational human experience. Despite that they are now essentially forever with us. AND our very distant progeny. Problem or not. Including genetics, nuclear fission waste, etc. Not saying they shouldn't be tested. Certainly not condoning vandalism. Just saying that assuming "best case outcome" without extreme caution could prove folly. We The People, SHOULD have a voice in such decisions, at least. imo.

 

[idssteve]

Of course what constitutes "fully tested"? MANY things we are taking for granted have NOT enjoyed multi generational human experience. Despite that they are now essentially forever with us. AND our very distant progeny. Problem or not. Including genetics, nuclear fission waste, etc. Not saying they shouldn't be tested. Certainly not condoning vandalism. Just saying that assuming "best case outcome" without extreme caution could prove folly. We The People, SHOULD have a voice in such decisions, at least. imo.

Attempting tie to topic, lol, we might ponder just WHO's tea Boston harbor fish enjoyed a party with. ? Lol. It was NOT, strictly, British Government tea. Afaik, it was still owned by East India monster corp. A "government" to itself? Virtually synonymous with British Government? A collusion of unelected bureaucratic tyranny that We The People enjoyed NO voice in? Sounding familiar?

Idk the first thing about the genetically engineered corn that those LOONS destroyed. My guess, tho, is that the process of destruction risked releasing pollen. If I were raising an heirloom crop near by, I might prove supremely grumpy about that pollen infesting MY crops. How do u undo that? ??

The loons generating such a gmo pollen cloud are NOT environmentalists! Imo. They could've been hiding behind "environmentalism" as a cloak for other motives? Imo. Sounding familiar? Lol

 

[Ph1llip]

Attempting tie to topic, lol, we might ponder just WHO's tea Boston harbor fish enjoyed a party with. ? Lol. It was NOT, strictly, British Government tea. Afaik, it was still owned by East India monster corp. A "government" to itself? Virtually synonymous with British Government? A collusion of unelected bureaucratic tyranny that We The People enjoyed NO voice in? Sounding familiar?

Idk the first thing about the genetically engineered corn that those LOONS destroyed. My guess, tho, is that the process of destruction risked releasing pollen. If I were raising an heirloom crop near by, I might prove supremely grumpy about that pollen infesting MY crops. How do u undo that? ??

The loons generating such a gmo pollen cloud are NOT environmentalists! Imo. They could've been hiding behind "environmentalism" as a cloak for other motives? Imo. Sounding familiar? Lol

This takes us into a fascinating tangent of complex models, chaos theory and the Uncertainty principle. I would posit that two farms growing different strains of something in close proximity to each other is not something controllable by man. Too many variables of cross pollination, water leaching, wind etc.

Reminds me of Jeff Goldblum playing the mathematician Ian Malcolm in Jurrasic Park, who, when presented with the whole concept of the park itself, promptly declared it as complex model and said it couldn't be safely managed. "Life will find a way".

Heck, driving down the I-95 in New England in January is a complex model .