Switzerland considers restrictions on EV use this winter

[idssteve]

This takes us into a fascinating tangent of complex models, chaos theory and the Uncertainty principle. I would posit that two farms growing different strains of something in close proximity to each other is not something controllable by man. Too many variables of cross pollination, water leaching, wind etc.

Reminds me of Jeff Goldblum playing the mathematician Ian Malcolm in Jurrasic Park, who, when presented with the whole concept of the park itself, promptly declared it as complex model and said it couldn't be safely managed. "Life will find a way".

Heck, driving down the I-95 in New England in January is a complex model .

Always considered it a tragic shame that Heisenberg and Bohr ended so crossed up. Heisenberg had to know that infamous meeting was bugged. Was Bohr so obtuse to unthread hidden vocabulary? Talk about Uncertainty Principal! Lol. (spelling intended, btw. Lol)

 

[idssteve]

Always considered it a tragic shame that Heisenberg and Bohr ended so crossed up. Heisenberg had to know that infamous meeting was bugged. Was Bohr so obtuse to unthread hidden vocabulary? Talk about Uncertainty Principal! Lol. (spelling intended, btw. Lol)

My point about gmo pollen drift originated with a farmer suffering civil and legal jeopardy because some tiny trace of ip protected genetic code was found among some of his harvest! Genetic code he did NOT want at ALL!

He might lose his farm over the mess!

If Monster Corp can contaminate your cropground then collude with Monster Gov to take it... ? Are we back to East India/Crown tea tax collusion?

Too analogous to the RICE NESHAP "settlement" that involved no elected representative AFAIK? The "settlement" that forced retirement of half of this muni's RICE capacity? Here we are.

 

[Laura Knotek]

My point about gmo pollen drift originated with a farmer suffering civil and legal jeopardy because some tiny trace of ip protected genetic code was found among some of his harvest! Genetic code he did NOT want at ALL!

He might lose his farm over the mess!

If Monster Corp can contaminate your cropground then collude with Monster Gov to take it... ? Are we back to East India/Crown tea tax collusion?

Too analogous to the RICE NESHAP "settlement" that involved no elected representative AFAIK? The "settlement" that forced retirement of half of this muni's RICE capacity? Here we are.

That also reminds me of a YouTube video I saw where a Highland cattle farmer had to chase and corral his neighbor's Hereford bull, so the Hereford bull wouldn't contaminate the herd by breeding any Highland cows. Hereford bull was unwanted DNA that would result in cross contamination calves.

 

[idssteve]

That also reminds me of a YouTube video I saw where a Highland cattle farmer had to chase and corral his neighbor's Hereford bull, so the Hereford bull wouldn't contaminate the herd by breeding any Highland cows. Hereford bull was unwanted DNA that would result in cross contamination calves.

Haha... as mentioned above... "life will find a way". Bulls will certainly seek a way. Hopeless scenario on open range. Fencing helps a little. I've seen bulls strut right through aggressively barbed fencing, tho. Neighborly collaboration proves essential.

What if, that Hereford bull's owner had trained that bull to seek out neighbor Highland cattle? And THEN sent neighbor bills for the resulting calves? And THEN sent subpoena for ip infringement? That's what this farmer I spoke with yesterday explained about had happened with gmo pollen..

A mess that'll need some sorting.

 

[spARTacus]

Wasn't there already an incident of a farmer being sued because pollen from some nearby factory crop ended up cross pollinating with the farmer's crop, and then a movie about it?

Edit: Disregard. Already also mentioned a few posts ago.

 

[idssteve]

Wasn't there already an incident of a farmer being sued because pollen from some nearby factory crop ended up cross pollinating with the farmer's crop, and then a movie about it?

Edit: Disregard. Already also mentioned a few posts ago.

Oh, I'm sure it's no new issue. Haven't devoted time to even google. I'm not in town for agricultural issues. Loll.

Didn't mean to sidetrack the thread. Just got brought up during a Sunday School class I'd been invited to. Long story. Go figure.

 

[Laura Knotek]

Oh, I'm sure it's no new issue. Haven't devoted time to even google. I'm not in town for agricultural issues. Loll.

Didn't mean to sidetrack the thread. Just got brought up during a Sunday School class I'd been invited to. Long story. Go figure.

Sorry I also contributed to the agricultural discussion.

 

[idssteve]

Sorry I also contributed to the agricultural discussion.

Lol... worse has happened. My original point is that this sleepy farming mini muni retired about 5MW of NG fired RICE generation. Due to expense and/or impossibility of meeting RICE NESHAP rule. They simplistically leveraged bond issue, grants, etc to "replace" that retired capacity with a 30 acre, 5MWp, solar farm. An impressive installation, imo.

Problem is, as I learned building my off grid home, replacing the full range of fossil fired RICE capabilities with solar demands at least double solar capacity. AND a LOT of battery!

Now I've pointed out that to truly replace that 5MW RICE, they need at LEAST 10MW solar! 5 to carry the town during daytime while simultaneously charging batteries for night time. AND they need 12@5MW=60MWH battery capacity. To carry town thru night time. At LEAST.

IOW, LOTS of $$ yet. And that's just keeping up with where they were before RICE NESHAP. Adding EV loads is a whole additional thing.

I've offered to show some of them how I made my own NiFe batteries. Already located some used PVs @ 25¢/W. Just helping helping cause I like the folks. Nice thing about retirement. Lol

I came to town to sort out power arrangements for a client. A big employer for that town. Only to find they'd been sold a woefully rosy solar scenario. Reality sux sometimes.

 

[Laura Knotek]

Lol... worse has happened. My original point is that this sleepy farming mini muni retired about 5MW of NG fired RICE generation. Due to expense and/or impossibility of meeting RICE NESHAP rule. They simplistically leveraged bond issue, grants, etc to "replace" that retired capacity with a 30 acre, 5MWp, solar farm. An impressive installation, imo.

Problem is, as I learned building my off grid home, replacing the full range of fossil fired RICE capabilities with solar demands at least double solar capacity. AND a LOT of battery!

Now I've pointed out that to truly replace that 5MW RICE, they need at LEAST 10MW solar! 5 to carry the town during daytime while simultaneously charging batteries for night time. AND they need 12@5MW=60MWH battery capacity. To carry town thru night time. At LEAST.

IOW, LOTS of $$ yet. And that's just keeping up with where they were before RICE NESHAP. Adding EV loads is a whole additional thing.

I've offered to show some of them how I made my own NiFe batteries. Already located some used PVs @ 25¢/W. Just helping helping cause I like the folks. Nice thing about retirement. Lol

I came to town to sort out power arrangements for a client. A big employer for that town. Only to find they'd been sold a woefully rosy solar scenario. Reality sux sometimes.

The problem is that the town doesn't have engineers like you making the decisions on this solar farm. Then again, I doubt if you have any desire to become a politician who makes these decisions (or become a politician at all). You're too intelligent to go into politics.

 

[idssteve]

The problem is that the town doesn't have engineers like you making the decisions on this solar farm. Then again, I doubt if you have any desire to become a politician who makes these decisions (or become a politician at all). You're too intelligent to go into politics.

Well, they have had engineers. Hate to comment much without hearing the other side. They got a really impressive solar farm. Just undersized for the role of fully replacing retired fossil fired RICE.. Possible language or culture misinterpretation?

Utility is NOT my industry. Neither is politics. Ug. Sadly, this muni's predicament is not so unique.

 

[idssteve]

Updates on the sorta relevant issues a random mini muni grid operator is facing. A pretty global issue? Maybe even Switzerland?

A coworker has found some used PV panels at 15¢/W. Obsoleted by loss of UL rating because of poor pigtail terminations. Go figure. Whoever the original owner was elected to replace the whole panels rather than simply fit better terminations. It seems. He's tested a couple and they seem fine. BUT they've been stored inside 40' shipping containers in Florida sun for multiple years. Those containers CAN get hot. Possibly degrading the panels? They'll be unloading and spot checking today. Saga continues. Lol

I've midnite oiled some documentation. Mini Muni's (avoiding name) native dual fuel RICE plant proofed at just over 10MW. Year after year. That surplus capacity due to a big industry getting bought by a monster corp and shut down.

That vastly surplus PAID FOR capacity also afforded citizens unparalleled power reliability! Something they'd grown accustomed to. Reliability attracted my client to build a facility there. A decision I consulted for, long ago.

A respected engineering firm performed a study recommending retirement of about half of that plant. Due to inability to retrofit RICE NESHAP exhaust catalysts to the old beasts. Monsters designed to last for EVER! Cylinder bores ranging from 14" to 21.5" diameter! Full load synchronous speeds ranging from 225 - 300 RPM. At peak HP! Exhaust temperature that simply couldn't achieve 450°F catalyst light off.

These beasts were designed for continuous 24/7, 8000+ hrs/yr, indefinite service operation! Old school "continuous" ratings with one cylinder missing at 8000ft elevation! Day, night, 115°F, -40°F, ambient!

Solar, on the other hand, is rated at peak sunlight. What it delivers at other times of day, or night, proves a whole different thing. The "ratings" specs for the two technologies might use similar sounding terms BUT vastly different performance expectations. Anyone recall the "net HP" vs "gross HP" controversies of muscle car days? Loll.

The evaluation submitted by a respected engineering firm suggested replacing retired 5MW RICE capacity with 5MW of modern RICE or consider "equivalent" capacity in solar, wind, etc.

The "failure of communication" centers on "equivalent". Imo. Go figure.

How many political leaders appreciate the engineering implications of "equivalent"? Even in Switzerland? Lol


Posts sure get longer with Bold under thumb. Lol

 

[spARTacus]

Yes, engineering by PowerPoint (or engineering forced to convey information to politicians via PowerPoint) can be very dangerous.

 

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

Well from a engineering standpoint I would run into this all the time. Companies and firms will fudge the info or use colorful language to convey a idea/though/contract. The standards over the last 20 years has gone straight into the sewer. As a great engineer once said “ the more complicated you make the plumbing; the easier it is to stop up the pipes” Scotty USS Enterprise Chief Engineer

 

[SteinwayTransitCorp]

well Tesla update: we took the car up into the Georgia mountains again. Real cold weather, arrived late in the day. Parked out side (to lazy to put car away) woke up to 25 degree weather. Ice on the car, battery stone dead. Called Tesla help line. Told me to wait until the temperature outside rose above freezing. That wait 3 hours after that and then plug it in. Did it all and it took the battery 15 hours to get to 50 mile range. Once the battery was warm it did charge faster.

 

[idssteve]

well Tesla update: we took the car up into the Georgia mountains again. Real cold weather, arrived late in the day. Parked out side (to lazy to put car away) woke up to 25 degree weather. Ice on the car, battery stone dead. Called Tesla help line. Told me to wait until the temperature outside rose above freezing. That wait 3 hours after that and then plug it in. Did it all and it took the battery 15 hours to get to 50 mile range. Once the battery was warm it did charge faster.

Ug. MUCH activity in alternatives to Li... Takes time.

 

[idssteve]

Well from a engineering standpoint I would run into this all the time. Companies and firms will fudge the info or use colorful language to convey a idea/though/contract. The standards over the last 20 years has gone straight into the sewer. As a great engineer once said “ the more complicated you make the plumbing; the easier it is to stop up the pipes” Scotty USS Enterprise Chief Engineer

Scotty's a hero of mine!

 

[idssteve]

Yes, engineering by PowerPoint (or engineering forced to convey information to politicians via PowerPoint) can be very dangerous.

I do PowerPoint. Mostly operator training. Still love my Bold thru Playbook's hdmi for that. Lets me roam the room... Bold's trackpad truly POINTS. Lol.

But yeah, salesmen posing as engineers proves a lifelong gripe for me. Made quite a career out of cleaning up messes they'd left in their path. Lol.

Only thing worse? Lawyers (including politicians?) practicing engineering without license? How long would it take THEM to lock ME away for practicing law without license? Lol.

 

[Ph1llip]

well Tesla update: we took the car up into the Georgia mountains again. Real cold weather, arrived late in the day. Parked out side (to lazy to put car away) woke up to 25 degree weather. Ice on the car, battery stone dead. Called Tesla help line. Told me to wait until the temperature outside rose above freezing. That wait 3 hours after that and then plug it in. Did it all and it took the battery 15 hours to get to 50 mile range. Once the battery was warm it did charge faster.

Aaaargghhhh...you see, I couldn't handle something like that as calmy as you did. I'm so OCD. When it comes to potentially life saving equipment like a vehicle, I only use stuff that can be relied upon 99.9999997 of the time. Which the starter motor and battery of my ICE SUV and pickup both are.

I wonder how the Swiss (or the rest of Western Europe for that matter) handle this during winter, especially as most of these countries have small housing plots especially in metropolitan areas and hardly anyone has a garage???

 

[spARTacus]

...salesmen posing as engineers proves a lifelong gripe for me. Made quite a career out of cleaning up messes they'd left in their path. Lol....

The gripe I was more referring to is when engineering by PowerPoint results in wrong decisions. Presumably happens all the time nowadays. The CAIB Report Vol1 pg 191 refers to this as "engineering by viewgraphs", and elsewhere in the report it discusses the significant negative implication contributions of such back then at NASA.

 

[spARTacus]

well Tesla update: we took the car up into the Georgia mountains again. Real cold weather, arrived late in the day. Parked out side (to lazy to put car away) woke up to 25 degree weather. Ice on the car, battery stone dead. Called Tesla help line. Told me to wait until the temperature outside rose above freezing. That wait 3 hours after that and then plug it in. Did it all and it took the battery 15 hours to get to 50 mile range. Once the battery was warm it did charge faster.

I am kind of surprised you let yourself get into that situation, unless you knew you weren't going to need to use the car the next entire day and therefore you could afford to see what might happen from a learning or awareness perspective.